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Thread: DIY Nicotine salts

  1. #1
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    DIY Nicotine salts

    There has been much interest lately with the advent of vape pod devices in nicotine salts, as used in for example the JUUL. Because these devices are severely under-powered in comparison to modern devices, it is natural to increase the nic strength to at least get a somewhat satisfying vape from them.

    You use nic salts for one thing IMO, and that's so you can use higher nic strength liquids without the corresponding higher TH, and because of the higher strength you vape less (a lot). Also, again because of the strength you feel it's affects sooner.

    On the desktop now, and have access to the relevant info. I was intrigued by the nic salts used in the vape pod mods, as I wanted to try some in the ICare I had, moreso for the "vaping like a cigarette" use. This lead to an interesting thread on ECF, where they had just started a discussion on nic salts, and I naturally joined in. I also googled it, and found only 2 or 3 nic suppliers offering nic salts, all of them in the US. But I did find one or two US Patents which not only described how they made it, but also a shedload of research, graphs and whatnot. One of these is US20160044968, which describes their methodology of using organic acids to convert some of the freebase nic to nic-xxx-ates (the 3 xxx are dependent on the acid used).


    ..and is it possible to 'salt' existing nic?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kurt the chemist
    Yes, in principle, but I have never done it myself. One would add a benign acid, like citric or pyruvic acid, until the pH drops to where you want it. Besides NN, I have seen this done commercially, Vermont Vapor, with citric acid, but not for the purpose of creating salts, just during production of nic solutions to cut down on smell of the pure nic. This was years ago, and I am assuming they still do this. They sell 35 mg/mL DIY VG-nic, which if only free-base form would be about pH 10.4, but theirs is roughly pH 9. So a significant amount of the nic is citrate salt form. I don't have exact numbers since it is an amphoteric salt, which adds a bit of complication to the calculation.

    And of course if you were to do this, or purchase nic salt solutions, you will no longer be able to determine nicotine content by titration kit, since the acid (like citric) essentially titrates some of the free-base nic, which is what a titration kit will measure, not total nic content, free-base + salt form. Some flavors will do this too if they are acidic...which also makes salts.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kurt the chemist
    Do NOT confuse benzoic acid with benzene! They are not even remotely the same, other than the benz part of the name. Benzoic acid is a commonly used food preservative, as sodium benzoate (the sodium salt of benzoic acid). Benzene is a carcinogen.

    That said, I would prefer other acids be used to make these salts, like pyruvic or citric, which are probably safer than benzoic. But benzoic acid is not even remotely as risky as benzene, which is NOT used at all, and probably forms, as Dr. F said, in vanishingly small quantities in the case of dry puff if there is benzaldehyde (cherry, almond) present.
    So using a batch of 45mg/ml, I salted this* using 1% Citric acid (by weight) and got the shock of my life as to the lack of TH I expected to have. I've also used upto 13% Citric acid, where there is NO TH period, but it does seem to clog the little ICare coils a bit


    *Said in an understated way, precise heating was also used
    Last edited by gtadmin; 31-03-17 at 10:23 AM. Reason: added even more info ;)
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  2. #2
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    gtadmin and Fatman like this.
    Colouring My World with Elegance
    Started Vaping 13th October, 2011

  3. #3
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    I read a little bit about those,I thought it sounded pretty interesting.

  4. #4
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    I need to get to the other computer to finish off the first post as that has all the reference info, but in this case I am only converting freebase nic to salted nic, no WTA involved.

    I also extract home made WTA, and that is already salted as part of the extraction process. But I'm reluctant to post about that process while we can still import nic and/or WTA into Australia. If somebody was to close that loophole, then I would consider it.
    Stomp, MrGruffy and DogMan like this.
    Started vaping 28th October 2011

    The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten. - Benjamin Franklin
    Just because you are offended doesn't mean you are right ...

    God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can and the wisdom to know the difference.




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  5. #5
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    Nude nicotine has three different nic salt formulas.

    https://www.nudenicotine.com/nicotin...-formulations/

    All based on adding cations, and apparently adjusting the pH.

    I'd be more interested in increasing the throat hit whilst bring the nic level all the way to near zero.

    Menthols, Alcohols, "throat hit enhancers", higher PG and others have an abysmal record of doing this.

    Samples are available for relatively low prices.

    My main issue is that most flavourings themselves contain varieties of salts, and have their own pH levels which may interfere with any effect the salted base has.

  6. #6
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    Updated the OP with more info And TH with 0mg nic is easily obtainable, just experiment (like I have) with common (and some not-so-common ... but all legal) herbs and spices
    Last edited by gtadmin; 30-03-17 at 07:53 PM.
    Started vaping 28th October 2011

    The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten. - Benjamin Franklin
    Just because you are offended doesn't mean you are right ...

    God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can and the wisdom to know the difference.




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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crisscross View Post
    Subscribed
    Ditto !
    EPM V2-18490 (X2 ),GP Spheroid V2.5 and GP Piccolo V2.5 ,BBCB, Provari mini's, REO mini V2.1, 18490 REO , Jazz Carto Pipes ( fitted with GA tank and churchwarden stem Totally Evil!!! ), Meerschaum pipe ,e-holly35W,Phideas, AIOS,Taifun atties, PC Pipe mods.PC Squonker, Svapiamo squonker, GP Paps Heron combo.

    Vaping since 2007 totally smoke free since 2011


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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by gtadmin View Post
    Updated the OP with more info And TH with 0mg nic is easily obtainable, just experiment (like I have) with common (and some not-so-common) herbs and spices
    GT's KFC Vape?
    EPM V2-18490 (X2 ),GP Spheroid V2.5 and GP Piccolo V2.5 ,BBCB, Provari mini's, REO mini V2.1, 18490 REO , Jazz Carto Pipes ( fitted with GA tank and churchwarden stem Totally Evil!!! ), Meerschaum pipe ,e-holly35W,Phideas, AIOS,Taifun atties, PC Pipe mods.PC Squonker, Svapiamo squonker, GP Paps Heron combo.

    Vaping since 2007 totally smoke free since 2011


    AVF Rules , Read and understand them

  9. #9
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    KFC Frankincense for one, BTW

    Oh, updated OP again
    Fatman likes this.
    Started vaping 28th October 2011

    The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten. - Benjamin Franklin
    Just because you are offended doesn't mean you are right ...

    God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can and the wisdom to know the difference.




    Please read these rules

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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by gtadmin View Post
    Frankincense for one.....
    Gold and myrrh are the others...... very wise GT, very wise

 

 
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