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Thread: Temperature Control...

  1. #1
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    Temperature Control...

    Loads of people keep saying TC(VT) is just a power sacrifice, and that the cotton will still burn anyway.

    I don't believe this to be true... and after perusing various forums and also watching several videos, I can't find a shred of evidence to support the claim.

    Also, people say that Ni/Ti coils are "potentially" toxic at high temperatures (these temperatures are KNOWN to be higher than the temperatures a VT mod will reach in VT mode...) - but kanthal is also "potentially" toxic at high temperatures... and in VW mode, when the cloud chasers are hitting upwards of a couple of hundred watts, it is reaching high temperatures.

    Not trying to start a flame war... but I'm enjoying VT mode (admittedly with a Ti coil, because all the hype against Ni has me concerned...) - but where are the horror stories? The VT vapers being hospitalised and such?

    I can't find anything more than people's personal opinions on the "dangers" of VT... and I'd like to have a legitimate, respectful conversation about that - to educate myself and others on the topic.

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  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by staceman101 View Post
    Loads of people keep saying TC(VT) is just a power sacrifice, and that the cotton will still burn anyway.

    I don't believe this to be true... and after perusing various forums and also watching several videos, I can't find a shred of evidence to support the claim.

    Also, people say that Ni/Ti coils are "potentially" toxic at high temperatures (these temperatures are KNOWN to be higher than the temperatures a VT mod will reach in VT mode...) - but kanthal is also "potentially" toxic at high temperatures... and in VW mode, when the cloud chasers are hitting upwards of a couple of hundred watts, it is reaching high temperatures.

    Not trying to start a flame war... but I'm enjoying VT mode (admittedly with a Ti coil, because all the hype against Ni has me concerned...) - but where are the horror stories? The VT vapers being hospitalised and such?

    I can't find anything more than people's personal opinions on the "dangers" of VT... and I'd like to have a legitimate, respectful conversation about that - to educate myself and others on the topic.
    Exactly right. TC can't burn the wick or the coil unless either the device is malfunctioning (poor TC implementation or faulty) or people just don't know what they are doing.

    TC gives vapers a whole different set of ways to go wrong and lack of understanding can lead to some big mistakes. I think a lot of these vapers have just got used to doing VW and are comfortable. When they try TC it goes wrong so they give it a bad rap.

    As far as high wattage resulting in higher temperatures at individual coils, this isn't exactly true. High Wattage on big coils also requires the other side of the equation, which is really big airflow that keeps the coils within the correct range. While multiple coils and large amounts of coil material produce a lot of really warm vapour, the actual temperature of the coils and wicks should not be higher than what is prudent. Vapers who ignore flavour fade or even off flavours in their vape are possibly on the wrong side of the temperature curve, but that would appear to be their choice, and it's not necessarily confined to cloud chasers.

    TC control only makes your wicks and coils last longer if you set it to a lower point, one that just gives you a satisfying vape with just enough vapour. Some people prefer to go for as much as they can get which means that they are not going to see much difference in coil and battery life.

    We're all different, and if you look at the variables it's obvious:

    Flavours
    temperature of the vape
    amount (thickness) of vapour
    DL or MTL
    airflow
    how much they vape
    how often they vape
    nicotine content
    financial considerations
    VV, VW, TC
    wicking material
    wire material
    tank, drip, Squonk
    DIY or RTV
    amount of throat hit


    At the end of the day we are not smoking which is the main thing. As individuals we can only help people who want to be helped, and as long as we understand that they might like something different to us.
    staceman101 likes this.
    Chris: Tobacco free since 17:00 15th March 2013.

  3. #3
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    i've evolved with the times. Temp Control for me was to make sure that the cotton didn't burn. I started vaping in wattage mode. Then bought a DNA40 and started using Nickel. Then I started with Titanium and loved it. Closer to the performance of Kanthal but still able to be used with temp control. Then all the studies came out and I was waiting for something new. Out comes stainless and I haven't looked back since
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  4. #4
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    Cheers, fabricator4. That's an awesome response.
    As near as I can tell, using VT isn't putting me at any greater "risk" than VW vaping.
    I enjoy both... but loads of vape friends have told me I'm crazy for enjoying the VT aspect of the eVic Wayne sent me... because Ni/Ti will oxidise and put massive amounts of toxins into me...

    Sent from my HTC 2PST1 using Tapatalk

  5. #5
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    Consider stainless, nikolous... but the eVic doesn't support SS in VT mode. If I'm using VW, will there be an appreciable difference between SS and kanthal?

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  6. #6
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    Consider*ing

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  7. #7
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    all my exotic coils are built with exclusively SS wire and I vape them outside of temp control in VW. It has a lower resistance than kanthal (ie a 5 wrap 24g kanthal coil will have a higher resistance than an equivalent ss316 24g 5 wrap coil) but other than that there's no real noticeable difference in quality of vape.

    I personally feel safer using surgical grade stainless, and I personally feel that the taste is cleaner than Kanthal.
    staceman101 likes this.
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by staceman101 View Post
    Cheers, fabricator4. That's an awesome response.
    As near as I can tell, using VT isn't putting me at any greater "risk" than VW vaping.
    I enjoy both... but loads of vape friends have told me I'm crazy for enjoying the VT aspect of the eVic Wayne sent me... because Ni/Ti will oxidise and put massive amounts of toxins into me...
    Titanium is one of the safest metals to vape on. It causes absolutely no toxic reactions or immune responses in the body at all - that why it's used for implants. It's also therefore undoubtedly one of the safest metals to vape on.

    Where things go a little pair shaped is when coils are dry burned at very high temperatures. At 600C titanium reacts readily with air, and you will get visual confirmation of this with the formation of a white powder-like coating on the wire, titanium oxide.

    Titanium oxide is considered safe as a food grade colorant and is used to give foods a whiter opaque quality. It is not considered completely safe for inhalation however: https://academic.oup.com/annweh/arti...Toxicology-and

    For this reason it is recommended not to dry burn titanium coils.

    I actually did clean my titanium coils - in temp control, at 300+ C. I never heated the coils until they glowed and finished the job with water and brushing. One test I did with titanium showed that it did indeed get a white coating if the coil was glowed red hot.

    Now to put this context: some years ago a well known juice manufacturer released their new juice which was "Unicorn Milk". It was a strawberry milk and did indeed look white/pink like a strawberry milk. They were using titanium oxide and a little red to achieve this effect. It was a hugely popular juice and the Yanks loved it. maybe a few on here have vaped it too, when it was the original formula. Eventually someone realised what was being used to make the liquid look like that and a huge hue and fuss ensued. People said the company should have realised that there would be an issue with this food colouring for use in e-liquid. Actually, no. The evidence for any serious harm is fairly slim. It doesn't cause cancer, and its affect is more one of being an irritant than anything else. It's not considered hazardous in a work environment: https://academic.oup.com/annweh/arti...Toxicology-and

    Given that Unicorn milk didn't cause any real problems all those years ago or since, I doubt very much that oxide on the wire indirectly finding it's way into the vape is going to be huge problem. I wouldn't go out of my way to create more of an issue, and if the coil did happen to burn for any reason I would replace it - apart from that though it's just a beat-up.

    The only reason I stopped using Titanium was it's such a pain to work with, being hard and springy, and you have to use wires that are quite thin so easily pulled out of shape when wicking.

    Temperature control is just a way to make sure your coil doesn't get too hot and create that white deposit. Oxidation that *might* cause a problem requires temperatures that a working coil never gets to - certainly not a temperature that you would not realise their was a real problem. Add to this the rather over stated nature of the dangers of titanium oxide and you have what is a risk that is so low, you'd hardly even consider it, and you could argue that you still safer that those using wires with nickel and chromium in them.

    Vapers are as bad as rapid ex-smokers sometimes (the irony should not escape us). The drama queens like to see any slightest suggestion of danger and blow it out of all proportion - it's the same trap that the bad science tries to exploit (it has formaldehyde, so it MUST be as bad as smoking!!!!!!). I think we've had one of these every few years since vaping started. formaldehyde, silica wick, diacetyl, ceramic wick, titanium oxide... What's next?

    The truth is, you could take your silica or ceramic wick, wrat a titanium coil around it, fill your tank with V1 strawberry custard, and vape it at a temperature so high that all you can taste is the custard... and it would STILL be at least 95% safer than smoking.

    By all means go for appropriate risk minimisation, but the only thing that can be considered completely safe would be to not smoke OR vape.

    Nickel is another matter. There is evidence that it may decompose at vaping temperatures and is therefore finding its way into the vape. It's also so soft it's also a pain to work with. I don't need it, so I choose not to use it.
    Last edited by fabricator4; 06-06-17 at 01:01 PM.
    gert and staceman101 like this.
    Chris: Tobacco free since 17:00 15th March 2013.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by fabricator4 View Post
    Titanium is one of the safest metals to vape on. It causes absolutely no toxic reactions or immune responses in the body at all - that why it's used for implants. It's also therefore undoubtedly one of the safest metals to vape on.

    Where things go a little pair shaped is when coils are dry burned at very high temperatures. At 600C titanium reacts readily with air, and you will get visual confirmation of this with the formation of a white powder-like coating on the wire, titanium oxide.

    Titanium oxide is considered safe as a food grade colorant and is used to give foods a whiter opaque quality. It is not considered completely safe for inhalation however: https://academic.oup.com/annweh/arti...Toxicology-and

    For this reason it is recommended not to dry burn titanium coils.

    I actually did clean my titanium coils - in temp control, at 300+ C. I never heated the coils until they glowed and finished the job with water and brushing. One test I did with titanium showed that it did indeed get a white coating if the coil was glowed red hot.

    Now to put this context: some years ago a well known juice manufacturer released their new juice which was "Unicorn Milk". It was a strawberry milk and did indeed look white/pink like a strawberry milk. They were using titanium oxide and a little red to achieve this effect. It was a hugely popular juice and the Yanks loved it. maybe a few on here have vaped it too, when it was the original formula. Eventually someone realised what was being used to make the liquid look like that and a huge hue and fuss ensued. People said the company should have realised that there would be an issue with this food colouring for use in e-liquid. Actually, no. The evidence for any serious harm is fairly slim. It doesn't cause cancer, and its affect is more one of being an irritant than anything else. It's not considered hazardous in a work environment: https://academic.oup.com/annweh/arti...Toxicology-and

    Given that Unicorn milk didn't cause any real problems all those years ago or since, I doubt very much that oxide on the wire indirectly finding it's way into the vape is going to be huge problem. I wouldn't go out of my way to create more of an issue, and if the coil did happen to burn for any reason I would replace it - apart from that though it's just a beat-up.

    The only reason I stopped using Titanium was it's such a pain to work with, being hard and springy, and you have to use wires that are quite thin so easily pulled out of shape when wicking.

    Temperature control is just a way to make sure your coil doesn't get too hot and create that white deposit. Oxidation that *might* cause a problem requires temperatures that a working coil never gets to - certainly not a temperature that you would not realise their was a real problem. Add to this the rather over stated nature of the dangers of titanium oxide and you have what is a risk that is so low, you'd hardly even consider it, and you could argue that you still safer that those using wires with nickel and chromium in them.

    Vapers are as bad as rapid ex-smokers sometimes (the irony should not escape us). The drama queens like to see any slightest suggestion of danger and blow it out of all proportion - it's the same trap that the bad science tries to exploit (it has formaldehyde, so it MUST be as bad as smoking!!!!!!). I think we've had one of these every few years since vaping started. formaldehyde, silica wick, diacetyl, ceramic wick, titanium oxide... What's next?

    The truth is, you could take your silica or ceramic wick, wrat a titanium coil around it, fill your tank with V1 strawberry custard, and vape it at a temperature so high that all you can taste is the custard... and it would STILL be at least 95% safer than smoking.

    By all means go for appropriate risk minimisation, but the only thing that can be considered completely safe would be to not smoke OR vape.

    Nickel is another matter. There is evidence that it may decompose at vaping temperatures and is therefore finding its way into the vape. It's also so soft it's also a pain to work with. I don't need it, so I choose not to use it.
    Thanks for the informative post and links. I'll stick with titanium coils (factory coils...) for TC, and work with kanthal for rebuildable coils 😌

    Sent from my HTC 2PST1 using Tapatalk

  10. #10
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    I started TC with Ni, moved fairly quick to Ti after trying to build a Ni coil that wasn't too low that the device spat an error.

    Was quite happy with Ti, but it is hard to work with, as Fab mentioned, stiff and springy.

    Then along came SS. Resistance was reasonable (unlike Ni) easy to work with (unlike Ti) and supported VW and TC. Since making my first SS coil I have not used anything else.

    If TC is your thing then I do suggest at some point getting a device that supports SS TC and go from there.

    BTW, I started with an Evic VT, so only had Ti and Ni and as such was stuck with those options till I purchased a newer device with SS TC.
    staceman101 likes this.
    Last cigarette, 11:00 AM 11th March 2015.

 

 
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