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Thread: Information on Diacetyl, Diacetyl, Acetyl Propionyl or Acetoin in e liquids.

  1. #11
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    Some links about Diacetyl and the inhalation risk for workers in popcorn factories in the US, thanks Usernametaken:

    Respiratory Toxicologic Pathology of Inhaled Diacetyl in Sprague-Dawley Rats

    Diacetyl - Toxipedia

    Popcorn Lung Disease FAQ | Frequently Asked Questions
    All opinions expressed by me, are my own, I do not represent, or speak for, anyone but myself.






    STOPPED SMOKING 11/08/13 STARTED VAPING 11/08/13

  2. #12
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    Happy to join the thread.

    Here is Vape King's response.......

    Question to VapeKing
    Would you be able to advise if your juices or concentrates include "Diacetyl, Acetyl Propionyl or Acetoin", and if so, which ones and how much as a proportion of them? Thanks Donna

    Answer from VapeKing
    Hi Donna,
    Our eliquids contain none of those ingredients. They are an inhalation risk.
    Brian
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  3. #13
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    Thanks Crisscross for the link to the information ECF has collected on this issue :

    Ecf are doing the same thing with vendors why not join in with them.
    Starting a LIST of diacetyl-free ejuice suppliers. Please, keep to JUST listing the supplier names! - Page 19
    I did a fair amount of research in the beginning in order for me to feel comfortable with the perceived risk in the eliquids I was vaping. Everyone measures risks as it relates to their own individual situation. Do what you need to do to satisfy yourself but collectively it's not necessary for me. I am happy with my eliquid.
    Starting a LIST of diacetyl-free ejuice suppliers. Please, keep to JUST listing the supplier names! - Page 19
    All opinions expressed by me, are my own, I do not represent, or speak for, anyone but myself.






    STOPPED SMOKING 11/08/13 STARTED VAPING 11/08/13

  4. #14
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    Here is Ecig Life's response........

    Question to Ecig Life (electroniccigarettelife.com.au)
    Hi, would you be able to advise if your juices or concentrates include "Diacetyl, Acetyl Propionyl or Acetoin", and if so, which ones and how much as a proportion of them? Thanks Donna

    Answer from Ecig Life
    Hi Donna, Thanks for your enquiry. They do not as far as I am aware but I would recommend sticking with the natural and organic flavoured brands such as Artistry Extracts, Papillon Organic, Crave and Virgin Vapor.
    Best Regards,
    Sean
    spud and VK2WAR like this.

  5. #15
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    Thanks to FatMan for this info and the view of someone who has worked in the chemical industry:

    This comes from being an industrial chemist in a former life for much of my working career .
    When it comes to flavourings , or additives that make no health claims , UNLESS they pose a significant risk , or are in some way bound by industry or legislated practice , a manufacturer is not obliged to divulge what they are. Different countries have different Standards
    i.e.
    Flavouring Regulation • Legislation • EFFA | European Flavour Association european
    Flavour definitions and classifications | Industry & Government News Australian Code of Practice

    The exact nature and combinations of ingredients comes under intellectual property .... it is ONLY if a substance is identified formally as a Health risk , that it violates the codes and must be addressed . ... That being said, all flavourings are made for a specific end use , and I dare say none of them were ever created to be vaped . Ingestion and inhalation are different animals , but you could argue that if an ingredient is a "stable" aromatic then it should not change its structure too much when liberated in a vapour form .

    I guess what I am saying is ... No manufacturer is oblidged to tell you what their flavouring consists of , as long as the application of it meets the guidelines and codes of practice relevant to the manufacturer ... This is like emailing Coca Cola and saying .. ok so give me your recipe ... its not going to happen.

    Now armed with the relevant information , you COULD approach a manufacturer and ask them if their flavouring content is safe to be inhaled in an atomised carrier solution of Propylene Glycol and Vegetable Glycerin . I do not think you will get a definitive answer however , because that then would be evidential that they KNOW they are doing no harm , and therefore if harm is later found to be present , it would sink them completely .

    I feel the best you could hope for is a generic , "all our compounds conform to industrial standards and are generally recognised as food safe " add also " We manufacture and mix food additives in accordance with all best practice principles and they are onsold with the express aim of being used as ingested flavourings ..if they are used in a manner other than that , we are not responsible"
    Flavouring Regulation • Legislation • EFFA | European Flavour Association

    Flavour definitions and classifications | Industry & Government News
    VK2WAR likes this.
    All opinions expressed by me, are my own, I do not represent, or speak for, anyone but myself.






    STOPPED SMOKING 11/08/13 STARTED VAPING 11/08/13

  6. #16
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    And if you would like my question to Nicoticket and their response it is here and starts at post number 97

    Which vendors use Diacetyl, Acetyl Propionyl or Acetoin in their juices or concentrat

    I will be happy to extract the information from Nicoticket and condense it here but it might take a while.

  7. #17
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    Links to the new study proposed by Dr Farsalinis: Thanks FM,

    Electronic cigarette liquids analysis-evaluating potentially harmful ingredients | Indiegogo

    Home


    1st link is the funding proposal for the study ( its crowd funded ) no bias from tobacco , pharma or whatever

    2nd Link is Dr Farsalinos's research group homepage
    All opinions expressed by me, are my own, I do not represent, or speak for, anyone but myself.






    STOPPED SMOKING 11/08/13 STARTED VAPING 11/08/13

  8. #18
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    Thanks Kent Brooks from Nicoticket for this info:

    I have been doing more research, and i discovered that the molecule Acetoin can under certain circumstances "catalyze" into containing minute traces of the molecule Diacetyl. When I spoke to a chemist about this, she confirmed that this can happen during the production of the molecule, but is unlikely to happen after a flavor is blended. I then had a sample of Acetoin purchased from Vigon International analyzed by GC/MS and yes, it did have trace amounts of Diacetyl! When I looked at the online specification sheet that Vigon posts, it does show that the purity of that particular product is 93-100%. Nearly every molecule that is commercially sold is somewhere in this range for purity, and this seems to be an acceptable industry standard. (Vigon is a very reputable company!) Of course, Diacetyl is a perfectly acceptable Food Flavoring, so for the Flavor and Fragrance Industry there is absolutely no problem with this particular trace occurence in the production of Acetoin. It is completely normal. But for customers wanting to avoid even trace amounts of Diacetyl, this means that any flavor that contains the ingredient Acetoin can potentially also contain trace amounts of Diacetyl, even though Diacetyl itself was never added to the blend as an ingredient. Because of this new information, I will add to the flavor descriptions of those flavors that I know contain Acetoin, so that customers can avoid those flavors if they wish. Of course, if only a small amount of acetoin is in a flavor, then the potential likelihood of there also being diacetyl is very very small.
    ************************************************** *
    Introduction: I have received some calls from customers who wish to learn a bit more about some of the ingredients used in flavors. Specifically, there are 2 ingredients that have people curious. Acetyl propionyl and acetoin. Both of these ingredients are replacements for diacetyl, which is no longer being used by many (but not all) flavor manufacturers. There are some who still include diacetyl in their flavors, but it is not used as an ingredient in any of the flavors we offer. Athough acetyl propionyl and acetoin are regarded as safe for use in Food Flavors, there are studies being done as to whether there are problems with inhalation. I am no expert by any means on sensitivity and safety issues, I simply provide flavors that are Food Safe, but when customers call me with questions, I try to help in any way i can. Any time you have a flavor that has a vanilla-custardy type note to it, it will have one or both of acetyl propionyl and acetoin. There is also the possibility that there will be Diacetyl as an added ingredient, (the flavor manufacturing company that we purchase our flavors from is restricted by their insurance from using Diacetyl as an ingredient, because of employee environmental health issues, but this is not true of all flavor manufacturing companies). The flavor notes of diacetyl, acetyl propionyl and acetoin are rather obvious, and once a person learns how to recognize them, they are easy to spot. Just like once you know what cinnamon tastes like, you can usually tell if a cocoa recipe has cinnamon in it just by taste! Our vanilla custard is a good example. Pretty much by definition, a vanilla custard flavor, no matter who makes it, will have both acetoin and acetyl propionyl (or diacetyl) in it. Just like it would be hard to bake a cinnamon cookie with no cinnamon, it would be really hard (pretty much impossible) to create a vanilla custard flavor with no acetoin or acetyl propionyl (or diacetyl). If you would like to learn a bit how to tell the differences, you can compare our Vanilla Custard (which has both acetoin and acetyl propionyl), with our Vanilla Bean Ice Cream. The Vanilla Bean Ice cream does not have any acetoin in it, but otherwise is the same flavor as the Vanilla Custard. So by tasting the two, you can learn to taste the difference between them and learn what acetoin 'brings to the party'. I like to experiment by tasting flavors in Cool Whip. This is a good way to learn about ingredients. Remember that both Acetoin and Acetyl Propionyl are perfectly safe for food-use, so there is absolutely no problem at all with tasting these flavors in Cool Whip or water or any other food. Then you can taste our original French Vanilla Flavor, which has neither acetoin nor acetyl propionyl, and compare with our French Vanilla Deluxe, or the Vanilla Beach Ice Cream, or the Vanilla Custard, which has them. You can see how the flavors are different. By learning how to recognize these flavor components, you will be more able to recognize them in flavors by other manufacturers too! Sometimes only a little bit of these "custardy" notes are added, just as a subtle nuance. For example our waffle has a little bit, but not nearly as much as the Vanilla Custard. So to help people, we are marking the main flavors that we know contain these two ingredients, so that if you choose you can avoid them altogether! Unfortunately, we might not know of all the flavors that may contain tiny "trace" amounts, but we marked them as best we know.
    All opinions expressed by me, are my own, I do not represent, or speak for, anyone but myself.






    STOPPED SMOKING 11/08/13 STARTED VAPING 11/08/13

  9. #19
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    A study that utilised Diacetyl in a vapourised form and was used on mice to determine the risks is here. The potential exists that one or all of the concentrate manufacturers could be contacted to ascertain the actual level of diacetyl added to their flavours. Based on this, one could do some maths based on the typical composition of most eliquids (i.e. concentrate used at 10% or 20% of the total mix) to actually end up with some rough figure for exactly how much diacetyl a vaper is likely inhaling (say if we posit 5 mls a day with 20% flavour and the flavour is 1% diacetyl then we're ingesting 0.1millitres which is I believe 100000PPM per day please note this figure is entirely guessed at and is for demonstrative purposes only) . This can then be compared to this study to see if vapers using eliquids are within the realms listed/tested here.

    Obviously it will be far from perfect. But as a starting place before further research is completed could either make us all more conscious of the potential risk or could allay a lot of fear.
    spud likes this.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by spud View Post
    Thanks for this link Wayno:
    Nicely done with the thread, Spud but that post #8 doesn't have any link in it, that I can see?
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