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Thread: Wires explained !

  1. #21
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    Yes, Vape Atomizer Mesh / Crazy Wire Company (same people - the former is just a site that caters directly to vapers and doesn't list the stuff you shouldn't vape with) are good.

    Personally I went Zivipf on my last order though - I preferred their range. They tend to stock more esoteric materials and I wanted an excuse to get some Zirconium and Tungsten (as well as a few other things - SS430, SS317L ribbon, NiFe48 ribbon) .

    I did notice Crazy Wire Co do NiFe30 - they just call it NiFe70 (it's still 70% nickel, 30% iron - or there abouts). Given NiFe30 is pretty damn variable though - and this stuff looks to be another variety entirely. They do list a TCR, though oddly the approximated curve based on their TCR is almost identical to the Stealthvape NiFe30 curve - though the resistance per meter for the same gauge is different (which is REALLY weird - because that would imply that it's a different alloy, and therefore the TCR should be slightly different... at least, one would think!). But meh, it's all only approximates - TC is still part art, part science, but mostly a guessing game at the end of the day anyway .

    Heh heh... you think standard round Ni200 was bad? Ni200 RIBBON. I can deal with Ni200 round... but Ni200 ribbon makes me want to jam two screwdrivers up my nose and bang my head against my desk. It is absolutely diabolical.

    Doing a build with Ni200 ribbon wire is not entirely unlike herding cats through a forest while wearing nothing but a strategically placed damp tea towel and scuba diving flippers - it's frustrating, awkward, uncomfortable, potentially quite embarrassing, and you just end up swearing a lot and wondering what in the hell made you think it was such a good plan in the first place.
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  2. #22
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    Lol, dont make think about fancier stuff than 430 SS...zirconium? i see a rabbit hole

    Glad it wasnt alone in noticing the ohms/m was different

    I was hoping for a nightmare free sleep tonight, but now...Ni200 ribbon...jesus, why would you subject yourself to such things...im guessing you cant even use the wood screw trick on that

    Thank god you dont have to hit a narrow tc window anymore like with the DNA40 at least, kiddies these days are so spoilt with tc
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  3. #23
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    Ive had limited success in getting a proper TCR value, and none at all so far form Crazy Wires/Vape Mesh for their 430 SS, and have seen and tried different theories on what the CR should be online. Currently ive got it set at 0.00168, and have seen people suggest 0.000238...which seems insane, iike someones just thought ill add 100...i tried it and it was way too warm.

    So ive decided to order some 430 SS from zivipf next week as it at least looks to adhere to the generally accepted TCR of 0.00138
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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by stylemessiah View Post
    Ive had limited success in getting a proper TCR value, and none at all so far form Crazy Wires/Vape Mesh for their 430 SS, and have seen and tried different theories on what the CR should be online. Currently ive got it set at 0.00168, and have seen people suggest 0.000238...which seems insane, iike someones just thought ill add 100...i tried it and it was way too warm.

    So ive decided to order some 430 SS from zivipf next week as it at least looks to adhere to the generally accepted TCR of 0.00138
    Hmm... this is not the first time I've heard of Crazy Wire being a little too appropriately named.

    I've heard 0.00150 - 0.00200, and 0.00175 - 0.00200 being thrown around as ballpark ranges people have had success with - it sounds like your .00168 is pretty average there, and probably very close to the real TCR.

    I notice they don't mention a TCR or anything of the sort on their website for the SS430. Disappointing.

    Checked Steam Engine, and their SS430 .csv is pretty darn close to a linear .00138 too, so that's not going to work too well with the Crazy SS430.
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  5. #25
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    Well i just built a new coil with the latest 430 SS from zivipf, and guess what, same issue as the last 430 SS form Crazy Wires, i dialled in 0.00138 and it was an anaemic as @#$. I took it past what i tried the last lot at it and still pooey. So, like the last supplier, ive sent an email asking them wtf is up with the TCR, will they provide the correct TCR setting. Crazy Wires just ignored me after they took my money. Im a little tired of messing about, and told them if they dont supply the correct TCR ill be sending it back for a refund....as inaccurate as 316L is supposed to be, and as accurate as 430 is supposed to be, 316L is looking like you shouldnt bother with anything higher. This last order cost me 30 euro, and a month wait...im not into handing out free money
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  6. #26
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    Actual email response from Zivipf- hey at least they replied, unlike Crazy Wires/Vape Mesh Co
    Hi

    try TCR= 230 for SS430

    some customer told me that it is the best
    And so back it goes, because i do not do guesses. His suggestion puts it as high as the Crazy Wires stuff, which was the reason i went to zivipf....

    How can i trust your wire when the TCR for 430 SS is published as 0.00138, thats from the accepted makeup of alloys etc in 430 SS wire, if youre making it via a different recipe, then maybe i dont want to vape whatever youre mixing up. Im starting to feel like wire vendors,. at least for some wires, just bang out what they want and label it how they want. I have 0 confidence in 430 SS after the same experience from the 2 vendors ive used after seeing them mentioned in vaping threads.

    Ive used 316L for eons, 3 different suppliers, all of them work as expected with the TCR set to 0.00092, and thats what im going to stick to.

    No more wire journeys for me until one arrives that can prove to be as reliable as 316L
    Cat and fridgemagnet like this.
    Stylemessiah: Prince of all things small and whispery. Abhorrer of shoutiness. Shunner of all vigorousities.

    Not on as many ignore lists as you think....

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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by stylemessiah View Post
    Actual email response from Zivipf- hey at least they replied, unlike Crazy Wires/Vape Mesh Co


    And so back it goes, because i do not do guesses. His suggestion puts it as high as the Crazy Wires stuff, which was the reason i went to zivipf....

    How can i trust your wire when the TCR for 430 SS is published as 0.00138, thats from the accepted makeup of alloys etc in 430 SS wire, if youre making it via a different recipe, then maybe i dont want to vape whatever youre mixing up. Im starting to feel like wire vendors,. at least for some wires, just bang out what they want and label it how they want. I have 0 confidence in 430 SS after the same experience from the 2 vendors ive used after seeing them mentioned in vaping threads.

    Ive used 316L for eons, 3 different suppliers, all of them work as expected with the TCR set to 0.00092, and thats what im going to stick to.

    No more wire journeys for me until one arrives that can prove to be as reliable as 316L
    Just a few observations...

    Anything with a higher TCR should be more reliable than 316, in as much as it allows for more accurate estimation of the wire temperature.

    If you want it to go hotter you need to lower the TCR, not raise it. See if it's better at 128. I don't think you will be too far out from getting a good setting. If that is too hot (be careful!) then try 132 and so on.

    It's not an exact science, and 430 being one of the lesser used wires means there not as much good data out there on using it.

    Using resistance for measuring the temperature of the wire is not perfect, because no all of the wire is at the same temperature - the legs are cold for example, and we know that the center wraps on a coil run hotter than the outside wraps. This makes simple TCR settings rather inexact.

    You maintain 180C to be a good vaporisation temperature, however the boiling point of PG is only very slightly lower than this. VG has a higher boiling point so mixtures with VG as well would have even higher vaporisation temperatures. I still maintain that 180C should give barely any vapour and zero throat hit or sensation (compared to stronger vapour). It doesn't matter really, as long as you get it run consistently.

    The formulation of stainless wires is not an exact science unfortunately. The maximum values for 430 SS is: Carbon 0.12, Silicon 1.00, Manganese 1.00, Phosphorous 0.040, Sulphur 0.030, Nickel 0.75 while Chromium must be in the range of 16 to 18%

    Typical values for wire products however are more like: Carbon 0.048, Silicon 0.36, Manganese 0.42, Phosphorous 0.024, Sulphur 0.010, Nickel 0.17, Chromium 16.28

    The reasons for the much lower carbon, nickel, and manganese contents is that wire products have to be drawn, and higher level of those products make this process more difficult. Chromium is expensive, so manufacturers tend to shoot for the lower end of the acceptable level, however you might expect to find percentages varying anywhere around these levels - the manufacturing specs are only a guide. 430 as you can see is mostly just steel and 16 to 18% chromium. The most important thing for manufacturers are things like hardness and corrosion resistance. TCR is not even on their list of requirements because only vapers use it as a heating wire, so TCR values in our application can probably vary quite a bit.
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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by fabricator4 View Post
    Just a few observations...

    Anything with a higher TCR should be more reliable than 316, in as much as it allows for more accurate estimation of the wire temperature.

    If you want it to go hotter you need to lower the TCR, not raise it. See if it's better at 128. I don't think you will be too far out from getting a good setting. If that is too hot (be careful!) then try 132 and so on.

    It's not an exact science, and 430 being one of the lesser used wires means there not as much good data out there on using it.

    Using resistance for measuring the temperature of the wire is not perfect, because no all of the wire is at the same temperature - the legs are cold for example, and we know that the center wraps on a coil run hotter than the outside wraps. This makes simple TCR settings rather inexact.

    You maintain 180C to be a good vaporisation temperature, however the boiling point of PG is only very slightly lower than this. VG has a higher boiling point so mixtures with VG as well would have even higher vaporisation temperatures. I still maintain that 180C should give barely any vapour and zero throat hit or sensation (compared to stronger vapour). It doesn't matter really, as long as you get it run consistently.

    The formulation of stainless wires is not an exact science unfortunately. The maximum values for 430 SS is: Carbon 0.12, Silicon 1.00, Manganese 1.00, Phosphorous 0.040, Sulphur 0.030, Nickel 0.75 while Chromium must be in the range of 16 to 18%

    Typical values for wire products however are more like: Carbon 0.048, Silicon 0.36, Manganese 0.42, Phosphorous 0.024, Sulphur 0.010, Nickel 0.17, Chromium 16.28

    The reasons for the much lower carbon, nickel, and manganese contents is that wire products have to be drawn, and higher level of those products make this process more difficult. Chromium is expensive, so manufacturers tend to shoot for the lower end of the acceptable level, however you might expect to find percentages varying anywhere around these levels - the manufacturing specs are only a guide. 430 as you can see is mostly just steel and 16 to 18% chromium. The most important thing for manufacturers are things like hardness and corrosion resistance. TCR is not even on their list of requirements because only vapers use it as a heating wire, so TCR values in our application can probably vary quite a bit.
    I did try it both ways, up and down from 0.00092 (my normal 316L setting - barely a puff) in 0.0020 increments to 0.00230 (anything over 0.00178 way too warm/hot for me but plenty of vapour, leaves a dry mouth, has a slight taste and irritates). And really thats more mucking about than im known for, and prepared to do.

    316L has been the wire ive been on longest of all wires, its TCR across 3 different vendors has been identical and the results replicable over god knows how many coils ive built.

    I hate to contradict you on your vaporization points of VG/PG, but ive been vaping at 175c summer and 185c winter for eons (in fact its button locked at these temps as i never adjust from them), people have seen me vape at these temps for well over a year, on different mods, DNA/non-DNA/SX Mini M - identical vape on each with 316L (from different vendors too), most recently VapeLikeKing505 saw me vape at 185c (on 316L at 0.00092) on saturday, and no ones ever said to me where are your cloudz bro?...in fact NicoAndLaughter can probably tell you how many times ive clouded up her tootlepuffer kitchen Ive just gone back to 60/40 VG/PG mixes after about 7 months VG only (the PG i got from Steam the other week was like the last lot i got from them, tainted, so i ordered some from VK and it is fine) from around 90% VG and yes i have slightly more throat hit (i usually got enough from my 12mg nic mix and the temp), but really less cloud dropoff than you'd expect

    See my earlier comment about dry mouth and irritation to reinforce my query about the makeup of the 430SS wire ive had from the last 2 places, and why im wondering what in fact i might be vaping, and hence why im not sending the spools i chucked in this order for others out to others, nor suggesting they use the previous spools of 430SS i sent them if they are overly cautious as i am.

    I guess the other point id make that i bought the 430SS primarily because it was supposed to be even more accurate than 316L, and to my mind at least that the promise of better accuracy is totally negated when the starting point (the initial TCR) is presented as a guess
    Last edited by stylemessiah; 11-07-17 at 03:13 PM.
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    Stylemessiah: Prince of all things small and whispery. Abhorrer of shoutiness. Shunner of all vigorousities.

    Not on as many ignore lists as you think....

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