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Thread: Friends at Last. Italian Tobacco Union urges Government to Tax Ecigs

  1. #1
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    Friends at Last. Italian Tobacco Union urges Government to Tax Ecigs

    The Italian union of tobacco operators last week lodged an appeal with the regional court of Lazio, in an attempt to block the sale of electronic cigarettes.

    ....“It’s unfair competition,” says Enzo Perrotta, president of the union of tobacco operators in a press release. Perrotta says that e-cigarettes should be subject to taxation just like traditional ones, and that their distribution should be done selectively. “Electronic cigarettes are a way of consuming nicotine, they are just selling cigarettes in liquid form.”
    Read full article here

    In the Libertarian Blogosphere, Chris Snowdon writes ; "Tobacco industry finds common cause with anti-smoking fanatics in trying to suppress e-cigarettes", In response, **** PuddleCote pointed out how this attack on ecigs by tobacco companies goes to show how distorted Australian Public Health Professor S1m0n Ch4pm4n's perception is of the whole situation.


    ........................Fail, indeed.
    mathsguy, davee and MrGruffy like this.

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    Yeahhhh.... It's the lack of tax on the competition thats threatening sales...

    I especially like the concern for the *jobs*of 20,000 people in retail that might be lost (actually many of them would be trivially transformed) should burned tobacco die out and annoyingly save around 1,000 lives per claimed job loss.

    Yay world - that's a truly disgusting level of self interest ya got there - and so shocking to see it coming from the place the mafia was born.
    mavinry4 and JenJ like this.

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    Well I can see that it is self interest on part of Big Tobacco to ask for taxation on ecigs. But I really don't see why that self interest is 'disgusting'.

    We live in a free world, or least that's what we are told, people have a right to smoke, they have a right to make that choice.

    On the other hand, it is good to see Big Tobacco in opposition to ecigs. I think such opposition is in our long term interest.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pgscott View Post
    Well I can see that it is self interest on part of Big Tobacco to ask for taxation on ecigs. But I really don't see why that self interest is 'disgusting'.

    I find it disgusting because these tobacco corperations claim to be representatives of the free market, but they are anything but. You don't see ecig companies lobbying for higher tobacco taxes, or lobbying to end government subsidies for Big Pharma NRT products.

    Ecig companies are simply plugging away wih their product. Big Pharma and Big Tobacco know that ecigs are a superior nicotine product, healthwise, efficacy, financially (when health costs weigh in), and aesthetically compared to their nicotine products. Take away tobacco tax and plain packaging, and ecigs will still win in the end.

    But instead of doing what good marketeers should do, which is to phase out their existing product and focus on developing a competing product, they merely try to have the state regulate the market to cut out their competitors. As CMB says, why compete when you can leglislate and litigate your competitors away.

    That, is what I find disgusting.
    Last edited by mavinry4; 20-05-13 at 03:23 PM.

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    I find it disgusting because these tobacco corperations claim to be representatives of the free market, but they are anything but. You don't see ecig companies lobbying for higher tobacco taxes, or lobbying to end government subsidies for Big Pharma NRT products.
    Mavin I can't believe that you could believe what you have just said. The 'free market' does not exist. The market has never been free and never will be. Ecigs have entered a market that is already heavily regulated by government. Regulation in which gives ecigs a huge advantage over Tobacco in terms of price. This is an advantage that is completely unearned by ecigs.

    Why on earth shouldn't Big Tobacco try and level the playing field?

    Ecig companies are simply plugging away wih their product.
    Of course they are. Why wouldn't they when have entered a market in which government regulation has gifted them an enormous advantage in terms of price.

    Take away tobacco tax and plain packaging, and ecigs will still win in the end.
    Maybe they will. And here's hoping they do. But one thing is for sure, nobody in the ecig business is going to be arguing for a level playing field in terms of taxation unless they are fools.
    Last edited by pgscott; 20-05-13 at 03:40 PM.

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    I would. I don't smoke, and I wish other people didn't either. But I still support tobacco companies right to market their product, and I think their tax should be proportionate with how much it costs to regulate the quality control, as with ecigs. (The idea of quality control in the freemarket is a more complicated debate). One might also argue that tax on any product should be proprtionate with the public health and medical costs. The amount of tax revenue from tobacco is far more than the health costs it creates. If tobacco caused 31 billion dollars in health costs, why are Governments urging to tax ecigs to make up for the lost revenue in tobacco sales?

    A "Freemarket" may have never existed, but the principles of the free market definitely do. Innovation and competition are at the heart of Free Market principles. When one industry attempts to cut out another competing industry using the state, they are simply trying to avoid innovation and competition.

    When I don't hear from ecig advocates during debates on plain packing and tobacco tax increases, I am dissapointed. I personally will always support the end of plain packaging and support proprtionate tax system.
    Last edited by mavinry4; 20-05-13 at 04:18 PM.

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    in my opinion, if tobacco cigarettes were given a level playing feild, lowered tax and right to advertise, we'd have far better ecig devices and ejuices. It would probably force the ecig idustry to innovate higher quality 510 cigalike batteries, with adjustable voltage, that could last far longer than todays cigalikes, both in charge and liquid, are that are extremely easy to refill. Youd probably be able to buy ejuice that really do taste like cobusted tobacco leaves.
    Last edited by mavinry4; 20-05-13 at 04:37 PM.

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    One might also argue that tax on any product should be proprtionate with the public health and medical costs.
    I don’t. I think that is a recipe for a totalitarian state.

    A "Freemarket" may have never existed, but the principles of the free market definitely do. Innovation and competition are at the heart of Free Market principles. When one industry attempts to cut out another competing industry using the state, they are simply trying to avoid innovation and competition.
    This is what business has been doing since time immemorial. And no, I don’t think it is wrong either. I think it is human nature. And to stand on principle against the reality is to me, simply asking to get played.

    My problem is not with people or companies that are acting out of self interest. My problem is with people who disguise their self interest (from themselves as much as anyone else) as for the benefit of others. I think the people who can hurt ecigs the most are health professionals and politicians. Both of these groups ‘self interests’ lie in their belief of ‘doing good’.

    When I don't hear from ecig advocates during debates on plain packing and tobacco tax increases, I am dissapointed. I personally will always support the end of plain packaging and proprtionate tax system.
    If I was in the ecig business I would be literally dumbfounded with any ecig business that argued for the above. I would distrust and dissociate myself from any such persons or argument. I would regard such people as either fools or having an ulterior motive.

    Mind you, I don’t support plain packaging or tax increases on tobacco either. But if I owned an ecig business that would be the last thing I would publically argue.

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    in my opinion, if tobacco cigarettes were given a level playing feild, lowered tax and right to advertise, we'd have far better ecig devices and ejuices. It would probably force the ecig idustry to innovate higher quality 510 cigalike batteries, with adjustable voltage, that could last far longer than todays cigalikes, both in charge and liquid, are that are extremely easy to refill. Youd probably be able to buy ejuice that really do taste like cobusted tobacco leaves.
    I can understand to an extent what you are saying. But I am just not someone who can see any reason to give up an advantage. Improved devices may well get here a little quicker if you had a level playing field, but I still think they will get here in the end.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pgscott View Post
    I don’t. I think that is a recipe for a totalitarian state.
    The alternative is that every smoker pays for the health costs related to their smoking. Some do with higher health insurance premiums, but not all do. I don't think non-smoking tax payers should have to pay for other people's unhealthy life choices.

    Either way, whether through sales tax or paying full price for the chemotherapy themselves, smokers should have to pay for their habit. I think they are paying way too much today however. It'd be cheaper for them to save their money for the chemo.

 

 
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