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Thread: Association Working Group

  1. #1
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    Association Working Group

    Hi All

    So that all who are interested are aware of what's going on I have just contacted 14 Forum members who have indicated an interest in being involved in the Working Group to explore how best to set up an association of e-Cig users. They are:

    Bethydy ,Deathguyj, Genecigs, GirlyPantz, Jessamine ,Juzm, Kaijurama, Keyboardmama, Megan, Mrsgruffy, Rolli, Samtron, Suspect, tally-ho.

    (Sorry Juzm, couldn't PM you. System won't allow it. You'll need to contact me by PM and advise me how to contact you if you want to be part of the Working Group.)

    When the Working Group has finished its work the outcomes will be disseminated in the first instance via this Forum and the next steps, as determined by the Working Group, will be advised. All those interested in being a part of the proposed association will then be invited to determine if the proposal will proceed.

    Happy Vaping
    Kevin
    Genecigs, Jessamine and Samtron like this.

  2. #2
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    I am putting my final response to Kevin regarding the amount of information he is requesting, in order to participate in the working group, here in the hope that other members will consider not only what it could mean for them as an individual but the community as a whole.

    Hi Kevin,

    Thank you for getting back to me about this matter. I am most definitely not comfortable with level of info you require in order to participate in initial discussions, as I have had no time to get to know you and as such I am unable to make an objective assessment of the inherent risk.

    Let me be clear that I am not concerned about identity theft but in the way those personal details can be used in the wrong hands.

    I am no politician by any means but I do know that politics is a dirty business at the best of times and that any action or association past or present can be used as a weapon to discredit a target. Once real names are linked with nicknames people can be quoted or called to judgement for statements be they serious or in jest, for example one of our members recently labelled people who use nicotine at a rate of 10mg/ml as "wussy," yet in other circumstances that same member would tell a new vaper that it is not about the numbers it is about what works for you and keeps you off the smokes. But lets be honest the former would make a better headline for the media and if that forum member was to be identified as a member of the association, by way of transparency, it could be damaging. Likewise if any member of the planned association was found to have any association with the tobacco or pharmaceutical industries or found to have a criminal history, it would/could be misconstrued in the public arena.

    The above of course was assuming that your intentions are indeed pure and the implications that need to be carefully considered if the full details on your list were to become public in their entirety.

    Now lets play devil's advocate and consider the possibility that your or other members intention's are not as pure as they seem on face value.

    In the wrong hands the detailed information could easily be used to bring possession charges against every person on that list, that uses nicotine in their e-liquid, simply because in this country the possession of a restricted poison is illegal without the applicable licence and nicotine unless it is in approved NRT or cigarettes is considered a restricted poison. Plus any trading/gifting of e-liquid would in the eyes of the law be seen as trafficking. Now you may argue that you are not asking for a street address however the electoral role is a matter of public record so a name plus a general location would be enough to obtain an exact address and conduct police raids(due to probable cause) around the country and bring charges against those listed. You have to admit that the above scenario would extremely damaging for the vaping community, a massive deterrent for existing smokers and would cement the perception in the eyes of the general public that the vaping community is akin to the illicit drug trade and needs to be stamped out.

    Like I said I have given the amount of information you are asking for as a stranger on the internet a lot of thought and probably more than it deserved, simply because it was requested in a forum where known members are loved and trusted on face value. However you are very new to the forum and as such logic dictates that a degree of caution should be applied due to the fact that the information requested is not simply a personal risk but a communal risk, so your possible intentions and the ramifications they can have on our community at large require careful consideration.

    You have offered nothing to dispel my concerns and as such I will not be giving you my personal details at this point in time. I truly hope that your intentions are pure because these devices can have a very positive impact on peoples lives and to deny people the choice or opportunity would be a heinous crime against humanity. I myself was bedridden prior to using electronic cigarettes and while they may not fit the puritanical views of some groups, they can improve the quality of life for those hopelessly addicted to tobacco.

    Here's hoping you make the right choices for humankind

    Yours truly
    GirlyPantz
    fifthflo, suspect and bethydy like this.

  3. #3
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    Just thought that I might also point out that a Federal election is looming and the public are currently being urged to ensure that their enrolment details are up to date .... hmmmm

    as with anything timing is everything
    bethydy likes this.

  4. #4
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    yeah im with you GirlyPantz if BigKev was a well know member of AVF i may be more incline to participate but you have bought up some very good points that now make me very hesitant. Also BigKev seems to be pretty slow with his communication regarding this matter which he believes is so important which is making me sceptical.

    Thanks for you insight and information GirlyPantz

    and sorry BigKev but im out.
    Old Dog and bethydy like this.
    If that doesn't work try a bigger hammer!

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by GirlyPantz View Post
    In the wrong hands the detailed information could easily be used to bring possession charges against every person on that list, that uses nicotine in their e-liquid, simply because in this country the possession of a restricted poison is illegal without the applicable licence and nicotine unless it is in approved NRT or cigarettes is considered a restricted poison. Plus any trading/gifting of e-liquid would in the eyes of the law be seen as trafficking. Now you may argue that you are not asking for a street address however the electoral role is a matter of public record so a name plus a general location would be enough to obtain an exact address and conduct police raids(due to probable cause) around the country and bring charges against those listed.
    Tin foil hat time.

    I hear you GP, I really do. But like I have said before, there are far more efficient ways to discredit/ bring down vaping. And none of them involve randoms on a public access internet forum.

    FYI, the bottom line is, if the powers to be desired to bust all of us for possessing our "poison" without the appropriate licenses, then it does not need our real names to do so. There is no anonymity on the internet for the ordinary everyday Jo Blow. All they need, if we are indeed breaking the law, and they can show probable cause, is to (legally) trace us through our ISP's, with the use of a thing called a search warrant. It happens much more than you would know.

    And I would love to be sitting in that court room-if indeed it ever got that far, which I very much doubt-with a bunch of vapers who have all been nicked for possession of nicotine. And not huge trafficable amounts; not even amounts that you would need if you were using it as weed killer. No, in amounts measure out by the millilitre. Woo, hard core crims right there. It would be laughed out of court, because the end story is nicotine is not illegal for personal use. I am not going to go grabbing the legislation, others can do that if they so desire. Neo knows it all, if he is around.

    A bunch of vapers on a public forum does not warrant any interest from anyone in officialdom. Why would it? Maybe Kev is really one of SC's minions, and is accruing all our identities so he can...?? So he can what? What is anyone going to do with our names and addresses? That they couldn't already do if we were actually breaking the law? Which we are not.

    I really can't believe the hysteria with this. He didn't ask for our first born sons. He didn't ask for virgin sacrifices. You know what he could be doing right now with my name and address? Absolutely nothing. The phone book is full of 1000's of them, I am not special.

    I will not be waiting for a door knock anytime soon.

    However, the lack of reply/silence from him does have me a bit concerned. But I am sure there is a logical explanation for it, and I will wait and see what that is before I assume anything.

    As a point of interest, it is now illegal for anyone to access AEC records that are not their own.

  6. #6
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    [QUOTE=keyboardmama;301908]
    However, the lack of reply/silence from him does have me a bit concerned. But I am sure there is a logical explanation for it, and I will wait and see what that is before I assume anything.
    QUOTE]


    BigKev last active .... 15/08/2013

  7. #7
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    Sorry for not getting back to you BigKev, I am also out for the time being, I understand you need people to get this thing started but I would prefer to help out where I can with a more established cause, I do apologise and hope you can get this to where you would like it to be xo

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by keyboardmama View Post
    Tin foil hat time.
    No tin foil hat needed

    * Whether any action made it to court or not, it wouldn't stop the media reporting that a series of raids were conducted

    * Perhaps our details and what we are doing are deemed too trivial to issue a search warrant with our various ISP's but hey if we are silly enough to volunteer information we are fair game and our stupidity deserves to be rewarded

    (Most of my family are "in the job" one day while on duty one of them stops just to have a chat with a "known" person while they worked in their front yard, close to their foot path.... the officer says they will go easy on them if they disclose all of the "goings on" at the address and not make them get a warrant and search for themselves.... in 2 seconds flat the "known person" was admitting to and pointing out things the officer needed to know but had previously been unaware of and the "known person" was sent on a long holiday for a hell of lot more than the officer's initial suspicions and all because the "known person" was so forthcoming in the hope that the officer would "go easy") Funny, hell yeah!! Food for thought though....

    * As the nicotine in e-cigarettes has not been approved for use by the TGA I believe it still technically falls under schedule 7, thus making it a restricted substance if they were to decide to follow the letter of the Law. If it was perfectly legal we would have the free trade we all desire. The fact that we can get it through Customs has more to do with the fact that it is not an illicit substance but merely a restricted substance and as such it only gets flagged for seizure when a state regulatory body such as the Health Department decides to make an example.

    If you really feel the need to dig around for the "official line" start here and then try talking it over with "the powers that be" to see if you can get them to settle on a more definitive answer. (from personal experience the "official line" will depend greatly on who you happen to talk to at the time.) But as it currently stands nicotine in/for e-liquid is an unregulated product therefore it automatically falls into Schedule 7 making it illegal to possess. As history has already proven any leniency we currently enjoy can disappear over night.

    * As for the hysteria you of all people should know that it is inadvisable to hand your personal details out on-line to strangers
    and secondary to that point is that we are making a decision here that goes beyond simple personal risk as the outcome will effect the community as whole and as such requires more of a global view than a personal view.

    * Finally I must say Kevin has replied in a timely fashion to all PM's after I pointed out to him via a separate PM that I was waiting for his reply, even if he has failed to attempt to dispel any of my concerns.

    oh and the biggest point that you have seemed to over look is that
    this is not "The Association" its a chat group wanting to discuss how an association would be formulated in the future!!!!!!
    Last edited by GirlyPantz; 15-08-13 at 09:43 PM.

  9. #9
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    I'm still up for it
    If I get busted, you all have to smuggle me nicotine in your undies when you visit me in prison

  10. #10
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    How on earth can people get together to create a strategy / group to defend us when the ANTZ get their acts together to try to remove our right to vape if we cannot give our names and email addresses to each other?

    What we are doing is not illegal, there is no law that states the possession or use of electronic cigarettes or PV's and their associated e-liquid is illegal. I recently wrote to my state health minister and got a reasonable and thoughtful reply that didn't once inform me what I was doing was illegal. The reason it is legal to import but not legal to sell within Australia is a social control move to prevent the devices becoming too popular.

    I am concerned there is a paranoid vibe in the Aussie vaping community where people think that the way to protect ourselves is to not make a peep. We know from looking at the overseas examples that because MP's/FDA etc did not know what vaping was it was easy for the ANTZ to manipulate their natural caution. The EU and US vapers are now playing catch-up to educate the decision-makers. We also know there is already a regulatory impact statement as well as a clinical trial in the works and the Govt is weighing up whether or not to go with a harm reduction angle. A decision WILL be made eventually, probably in the next few years if the current regime continues. I am firmly of the belief that that decision will be better if we make a contribution.

    That is why I answered Kev's questions.

 

 
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