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Thread: Whatís Not to Like?

  1. #1
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    Whatís Not to Like?

    Many anti-smoking advocates have argued that electronic cigarettes don’t help smokers quit but merely prolong their addiction to nicotine. In other words, the hundreds of thousands of electronic cigarette users in the United States are smokers who, if only they stopped using e-cigarettes, would successfully quit smoking.

    http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate...e-of-the-e-cig


    The Rest of the Story: Tobacco News Analysis and Commentary: New York Times Features Debate on Electronic Cigarettes

  2. #2
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    I know! Duh. It's the damn smoke, people. Ugh!
    Sixth Vape Year and Four Years Sans Durry.

  3. #3
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    I wonder if it is more to do with the puritanical idea that addiction is bad, in and of itself. That it is somehow a moral failing, rather than a simple physiological process. Addiction, IMHO is only bad when the person who is addicted to whatever, (not necessarily nicotine), is either harming themselves, or others, in some significant way, such as with tobacco smoking, but also alcohol, and other drugs (pharmaceutical as well as what is considered illicit).

    Nicotine does not harm the person or others, (when used as it is in PV's), so the addiction in itself is not bad.

    We have had many years now of state sanctioned demonisation of smokers, and smoking is seen far more as a moral failure of the smoker, than as a health problem or addiction, this in turn gives a sense of entitlement and a smug self righteousness to people who have not ever smoked, these people get a feeling of superiority because they aren't doing what our current society thinks of as immoral.

    I am also seeing this happening in the case of overweight or obese people, it starts out as patronising statements about health, and how the public health authorities just want to help people gain better health, but this is not what the agenda or the desired outcome is. This is simply the beginning of blaming, which will turn into discrimination, (justified of course, and state sanctioned), then demonisation on moral grounds.

    There is a cycle with these things, the only thing that changes is the minority group that is being victimised, and vilified.

    Me, I feel sorry for those that have to judge, discriminate and vilify others, just to feel better about themselves.
    Robray, gtadmin, Old Dog and 7 others like this.
    All opinions expressed by me, are my own, I do not represent, or speak for, anyone but myself.






    STOPPED SMOKING 11/08/13 STARTED VAPING 11/08/13

  4. #4
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    Puritanism is simply the haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy.





  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by spud View Post
    I wonder if it is more to do with the puritanical idea that addiction is bad, in and of itself. That it is somehow a moral failing, rather than a simple physiological process. Addiction, IMHO is only bad when the person who is addicted to whatever, (not necessarily nicotine), is either harming themselves, or others, in some significant way, such as with tobacco smoking, but also alcohol, and other drugs (pharmaceutical as well as what is considered illicit).

    Nicotine does not harm the person or others, (when used as it is in PV's), so the addiction in itself is not bad.

    We have had many years now of state sanctioned demonisation of smokers, and smoking is seen far more as a moral failure of the smoker, than as a health problem or addiction, this in turn gives a sense of entitlement and a smug self righteousness to people who have not ever smoked, these people get a feeling of superiority because they aren't doing what our current society thinks of as immoral.

    I am also seeing this happening in the case of overweight or obese people, it starts out as patronising statements about health, and how the public health authorities just want to help people gain better health, but this is not what the agenda or the desired outcome is. This is simply the beginning of blaming, which will turn into discrimination, (justified of course, and state sanctioned), then demonisation on moral grounds.

    There is a cycle with these things, the only thing that changes is the minority group that is being victimised, and vilified.

    Me, I feel sorry for those that have to judge, discriminate and vilify others, just to feel better about themselves.
    Gawd Spud, you speak exactly what I think. Only you say it very coherently and I think it very chaotically, lol!

    So thank you. Again, really well said.

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    Hi Old Dog, I studied Theology back in my Uni days, (we had to take at least one humanities unit per semester to balance my hard science ). A lot of the prescribed morality of the various religions is based on fear and guilt, and is all about control for those at the top of the structure, (who often gave themselves license to ignore their moral rules and regs). It was passed off onto the lay people as "love" , and a very conditional love at that, but when you strip it down to the bare bones, it was always about control, power, and most of all money. (sound familiar).

    We have a religion based around the health industry, who use exactly the same tactics as the religions do, fear and guilt, with the ultimate aim of control, power and money, for those at the top of the structure. We know this because if it was about health, then tobacco would be banned, and the safer alternatives for nicotine delivery would be made easily and cheaply accessible to anyone who wanted to partake of this stimulant.

    lol, that all sounds very serious, and I have become extremely cynical and sceptical over the years, (damn those books and knowledge).

    Now what I would really like to know is what the hell is "second hand fat" ? Sounds kinda nasty
    Old Dog and DEATHGUYJ like this.
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    STOPPED SMOKING 11/08/13 STARTED VAPING 11/08/13

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by JenJ View Post
    Gawd Spud, you speak exactly what I think. Only you say it very coherently and I think it very chaotically, lol!

    So thank you. Again, really well said.
    Thanks Jen, this is an issue that I am one passionate potato about (Gawd talk about mangled grammar, sorry)
    All opinions expressed by me, are my own, I do not represent, or speak for, anyone but myself.






    STOPPED SMOKING 11/08/13 STARTED VAPING 11/08/13

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by spud View Post
    I wonder if it is more to do with the puritanical idea that addiction is bad, in and of itself. That it is somehow a moral failing, rather than a simple physiological process. Addiction, IMHO is only bad when the person who is addicted to whatever, (not necessarily nicotine), is either harming themselves, or others, in some significant way, such as with tobacco smoking, but also alcohol, and other drugs (pharmaceutical as well as what is considered illicit).

    Nicotine does not harm the person or others, (when used as it is in PV's), so the addiction in itself is not bad.

    Addiction is continued behaviour despite negative consequences.

    Smokers are addicted. Vapers are merely dependent on nicotine. If a vaper was allergic to nicotine, but couldn't stop themself from consuming nicotine despite the allergic reactions, then you could say that that vaper was addicted.

    But don't let the smoke screen fool you. Governments and anti-smoking groups have for decades spent a lot of money, time and energy into denormalising tobacco smoking. All these bullshit reasons they come up with are to hide their fear that history will show that some Chinese guy in his basement invented a very simple device that could do more in a few years than they could in decades. They fear redundancy, and they fear having to accept that state sanctioned social engineering didn't solve this problem. They fear having to acknowledge that Capitalism does have a place in our society, and that The Market has the ability to solve problems. Big Tobacco and Big Pharma play to this, and are happy to see anything delay the ecig market boom.

  9. #9
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    Is it really a case of Governments and anti-smoking groups spending "a lot" of money, time and energy into denormalising smoking? Or is it more a case of them spending a little money, not a lot of time and energy, (compared to other things governments spend money on), to demonise the smoker? Doing this so they could appear to be doing something about smoking, while in fact doing very little at all? This way, the smoker gets blamed, vilified and suffers discrimination, while the government gets to keep all that lovely money from the taxes on smokes, and still look like the good guys. The money the government gets from tobacco taxes is far, far greater than anything they spend on denormalising smoking, so its a win/win for them.

    This type of campaign, ie: demonising smokers, keeps people focused on the individual, and keeps smokers from taking any collective action, which would impact the flow of taxes from smoking. I don't think that there is anyone in the government that thinks capitalism has no place in our society, in fact I think it is the opposite, the government fears collectivism not capitalism. The market hasn't solved the problem of people smoking tobacco, it is the market that has created the problem in the first place. Government has colluded with the "market", (big corporate interests), in a way that has benefitted both of them. The inventor of the e-cig has probably made very little money from his invention, and as most PVs are sold by very small businesses, the government benefits very little from taxes, and not at all for those bought from overseas. It would be in the interest of governments and corporations to encourage vaping, and I suspect that as it becomes more popular the government will have a "road to Damascus" moment, and start working out how they can push vaping and tax and regulate it so that the government benefits.

    The corporations are ahead of the government, they are already starting to get into the market, which will only see the product quality decrease, and the market will become limited to what the corporations want to sell us, and this will be encouraged by the government, as it will be easier to tax, much like the tobacco market itself, and very much like the media market in Australia today.


    Quote Originally Posted by mavinry4 View Post
    Addiction is continued behaviour despite negative consequences.

    Smokers are addicted. Vapers are merely dependent on nicotine. If a vaper was allergic to nicotine, but couldn't stop themself from consuming nicotine despite the allergic reactions, then you could say that that vaper was addicted.

    But don't let the smoke screen fool you. Governments and anti-smoking groups have for decades spent a lot of money, time and energy into denormalising tobacco smoking. All these bullshit reasons they come up with are to hide their fear that history will show that some Chinese guy in his basement invented a very simple device that could do more in a few years than they could in decades. They fear redundancy, and they fear having to accept that state sanctioned social engineering didn't solve this problem. They fear having to acknowledge that Capitalism does have a place in our society, and that The Market has the ability to solve problems. Big Tobacco and Big Pharma play to this, and are happy to see anything delay the ecig market boom.
    All opinions expressed by me, are my own, I do not represent, or speak for, anyone but myself.






    STOPPED SMOKING 11/08/13 STARTED VAPING 11/08/13

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