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Thread: Tobacco products directive: after the insurrection what next?

  1. #1
    Senior Member
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    Jul 2012

    Tobacco products directive: after the insurrection what next?

    Long post, but very informative about what's coming in terms of the EU regulation decisions.

    Clive gives great advice for what EU vapers should be doing. This is something us Aussies can takes notes on, and learn from.
    Olfella and spud like this.

  2. #2
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    Jul 2012
    I had some things to get off my chest about the current regulations ;

    A great and insightful post Clive. Thank You. I’d like to add a few things and get them off my chest once and for all.

    The Rapporteur has consistently stated that the aim of regulating e-cigarettes was to

    1.”make sure that the products are safe”, and
    2.”that they do what they say on the tin”.

    This clearly shows that Rapporteur has absolutely no idea about the use of nicotine.

    Nicotine serves two purposes; a physical sensation, and a psychological stimulation.

    Firstly, nicotine provides a physical stimulation at the back of the throat whilst inhaling called the “throat hit”. This is in fact what makes vaping most appealing to smokers. An e-liquid that contains no nicotine, or not enough nicotine provides little to no throat hit. If a person was to purchase an 18mg/mL labelled ejuice, and the ejuice actually contained only half of that amount, the person would know immediately that the ejuice they purchased was mislabelled. If the ejuice contained too much nicotine, the person, again, would immediately know that the ejuice that they purchased was mislabelled.

    This is also the reason why the original limit of 4mg/mL would have in effect been a de-facto ban. It is also the reason why no clinical trial on electronic cigarettes can yet be conducted properly, since those in the control group know immediately that they are using the placebo. Currently there are only a handful of products on the market that claim to mimic the sensation of a nicotine throat hit, however, reviews (and I can say with personal experience) have shown them to provide a less than satisfactory experience. I dare say, the first person or company to produce a sufficient nicotine-throat hit simulating additive will generate profits like no other.

    In addition, nicotine provides a psychological stimulation. But, again, the self-limiting properties of nicotine allow it to be used safely. It is not pleasurable to have too much nicotine in one’s system. If too much nicotine enters the blood, a person becomes lethargic, confused and often experiences headaches. They are more likely to put the device down rather than continue consuming nicotine.

    The only inherent dangers with nicotine are in spill hazards or unintentional ingestion, both of which can be countered by proper labelling and packaging. All ejuice bottles should come with child proof caps. All ejuice bottles should come with appropriate labelling. Europe must not follow in the absurd and hypocritical ways of Australia, a country which has clearly succumbed to intense pharmaceutical lobbying.

    It should also be noted that the daily dosage of nicotine for those who use nicotine gum, as instructed, can reach far higher than that consumed by most vapers. A person who chews a piece of 4mg nicotine gum every hour can end up adsorbing up to 68mg of nicotine a day. A person who vapes a 3mL tank of 18mg/mL ejuice in a day only consumes 54mg nicotine, and that doesn’t even take into account that only about half (possibly less) of the nicotine inhaled is actually absorbed by the lungs. Hence, this arbitrary limit of nicotine concentration is unnecessary, and those who use the topic of nicotine concentration as a kind of talking point are deliberately trying to create a red herring, and they should be called out for it every time, particularly The Rapporteur, and especially Jeremy Mean.

    Article 6, paragraphs 6-9 (of which e-juice is not exempt from), allows the EU to regulate additives, which is a major concern for many vapers. To understand why this is a concern, read this article on the kinds of additives in tobacco cigarettes, and this article about what some vapers fear of the plans by Big Tobacco ejuices.

    This also leads to the reason why the the 30mg/mL nicotine limit is far too low. The 30mg/mL nicotine limit may be ideal for encouraging new vapers to begin on premixed flavoured e-liquids and hence may be sufficient for allowing the conversion of almost every smoker to electronic cigarettes. However, some users will still be hesitant in putting their trust in e-liquid manufacturers to not include additives that could make the product more addictive. These vapers will always want to mix their own e-liquids, and they should not be denied this option. Limiting the nicotine concentration to 30mg/mL denies many vapers, or at least makes it much more difficult and costly to mix their own ejuice.

    Furthermore, the three main components of e-liquids (nicotine, glycerin, propylene glycol) are generally agreed by many to be far safer products for inhalation. The fourth component however, flavouring, will always be a contentious topic. Some opponents see flavourings as a dangerous marketing tactic. The more informed person sees flavours as potential dangers to health. An example is the use of Diacetyl. Only through vaping forums do most vapers learn to stay away from “butter” and “custard” type flavours. Article 6 allows regulations of any flavourings that may in the future be found to pose a health risk, and it is vital that studies such as the ClearStream Project are funded to ensure that this fourth component of ejuice is being constantly monitored.

    Marketing is very important. It was interesting to see the The deranged priesthood of tobacco control puzzled by the fact that most vocal vapers on twitter weren’t alarmed by the restrictions on marketing, which may have slightly shattered their delicate delusion that e-cigarettes are merely a marketing ploy by tobacco cigarette producers. Most vapers are consumer advocates, not vendor-advocates, and hence their concerns are mainly about the safety and availability of vaping products. Many of us are content for e-cigarettes to spread as they have, by word of mouth. However, this is not ideal. Too many people are dying from smoking related diseases each year, and the public requires marketing to accelerate the conversion of smokers to vapers.

    I once read a vaper explain on a forum that his brother, who he had been trying to convert, left his e-cigarette in the car whilst attending a party because, as his brother put it, didn’t want to “look like a d**khead” and decided to smoke at the party instead. This is a real and serious problem. Every step taken to prevent the normalisation of e-cigarettes, is a step taken to normalise tobacco smoking. Marketing of e-cigarettes is essential to public health. However, there needs to be restrictions. Teenagers are not the only one’s that like fanciful flavourings. This is true. But it is naive to think that teenagers don’t see advertisements. E-cigarettes should be advertised, but the marketing of fanciful flavourings such as fruits and sweets should be limited to a company’s own website. Marketing should be aimed at current smokers only, and this ad targeting doesn’t require the marketing of fruit flavourings. Myself and many vapers I know began on Tobacco flavours, and then later became sole fruit flavoured vapers. I believe Fruit flavourings are essential for those in the process of converting to vaping, but not for attracting them to vaping in the first place. Tobacco and Menthol flavours are all that is needed in marketing.

    Ideally, e-cigarettes should not be regulated as either a tobacco product or a medical product. The industry is big enough and important enough to be classified as their own category. For now, we should be pleased that they weren’t decided on as medicinal products, and should make sure that they don’t ever sway that way again.

    A big thank you to all those who contributed to, and voted to ensure that outcome.

    Note also the response by Chris Price of E-Cigarette Politics

    On a technical note, this is wrong:
    “A person who vapes a 3mL tank of 18mg/mL ejuice in a day only consumes 54mg nicotine.”

    There are now a multitude of lab tests that show only around 50% of the nicotine in the refill liquid is transferred into the vapour. The person *will be presented with* (we don’t know how much is absorbed, as yet) about: [3 x 18] / 2, which is 27mg of nicotine.

    Note that the only mention Laugesen makes on this topic (which is one of only two published tests on this topic) is that ecig vapour contains 10% of the nicotine that cigarette smoke does (although there are many reasons to believe this could be multiplied by a factor of 5, since he was using obsolete equipment).

    October 16, 2013 at 7:53 pm Reply
    Thank You. This is even more reason why arbitrary nicotine limits need to be stopped. If only 27mg of nicotine make it to the lungs, imagine how much little
    nicotine finally makes it into the blood stream. If this is the case, daily nicotine dosages for vapers, even those vaping 18mg/mL, could already be a fifth of that
    from medicinal NRT products.

    Maybe we should be pushing for a limit on nicotine blood plasma levels. I believe the original TPD included this(?). This way, we could possibly even make
    75mg/mL nicotine eliquids non-medicinal.

    Could you please provide a direct link to the those studies you were referring to? Thanks.

    That's it from me guys.

    I've got some serious reading and writing to do for work research.
    Last edited by mavinry4; 17-10-13 at 07:33 AM.
    m0n4g3, icarus, Fatman and 6 others like this.



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