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Thread: Fattylocks and the Sleeping Bears :)

  1. #1
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    Fattylocks and the Sleeping Bears :)

    Been giving this a little Fatman thought time a bit lately .

    This is long and rambley and is opinion only , its not a lecture or a treatise , it is what it is

    While I admire the enthusiasm some people are showing towards the stupidity of our government , and some of its "contractors" like various cancer councils/health officials on payola, self appointed experts etc . I wonder perhaps if this hit and run "in your face" approach is all that wise?

    I mean we all feel that vaping is the Holy Grail , that has single-handedly brought about our release from the evil grasp of tobacco . It is also a great liberator financially for most who avoid Shiney Modditis.
    We certainly feel and experience a perceived Health Benefit , and little by little , clinical research is starting to validate our perceptions.

    All good things hey

    And now onto badder things ... Like Govt. and those who want to enforce what we do as private citizens, loyal to the cause and good little taxpayer/voters/minions that we are .

    Most agencies utilise the same tactics , and why ? ..... Because they WORK !!

    Vilification .... smoking is evil , all smokers are in peril , We as a society MUST save them , because they are slaves to an addiction , I mean who would willingly devote huge amounts of their income to something so sinister . Conversely if we link e-cigs with smoking in the public eye , e-cigs are evil

    Divide and Conquer .... instigate a multi-pointed campaign so that any effort that could potentially topple one arm , is instead spread thoughout many arms and becomes diluted . Tax V Heath V Think of the Children V banning in certain areas V Mass media V ... it goes on and on , you know what I mean .
    So much so , that each State waters it down with action on a local ( council ) level... passing through probably 7 or 8 different organisations and societies
    So you have a multi tiered approach to the same topic . Data logged in each one comprises a tenth of the possible total You will never see the total , you will only see the tenths that way it confirms you are a minority .

    Personalisation.....Assuring you its for your own best interest, making sure you OWN the problem , through guilt brought to you via media, or perhaps even from your kids coming home from school " Smoking is bad kids..m'kay ... make sure you tell your parents and erode their stance " Never underestimate the power of guilt on a reasonable human being .

    There are a crap ton more of these methods, you know them , you feel them , and for every one you recognise there is one that slips under the radar of most of us .

    Now consider this in light of recent events ... we have people getting up the Cancer Council in WA ( guilty myself) , we have people ringing quitlines, people attacking "experts" I am guilty , a lot of us are
    But think of this ... None of those places are going to be educated , because they are part of a system that tells THEM what they have to disseminate .
    "E-cigs are bad " this will be 10 evaluation points on your performance review , regurgitate the fact sheet given you , and the world is hunky dory They are there to pass on the crap to US , nothing more , nothing less.

    So we have a lot of people poking Sleepy Bears ATM ,it makes us feel like we are doing something , but after giving it some thought , I wonder if all those little bears , are just KPI's ( Key Performance Indicators ) which tells the people at the top, Just what sort of groundswell they are encountering , and if further more draconian measures need be implemented . For instance is there a point at when 52% of the bears are poked frequently enough , does a little light on a legislative lawyers desk light up and he goes ... " Whoops .. time to get that little bill drawn up , they wont know what hit them ! " But until such time , it gives us leeway to "educate" the people in OUR way of thinking , and prevent growth of vaping

    Soooo no answers above you might have figured out.... only random musings ....

    I for one am ok , I have Zombie apocalypsed myself over the years , and if need be i can do a McGuyver and vape off a spoon in a candle flame if it comes to that

    So what would I do in the face of all this ... well first I will keep vaping

    Second I will keep educating myself ,not only about the facts on our side , but also the facts being garnered against us, yes even tho they regurgitate stuff from 5 years ago that has been well debunked already ... they do it , because 99% of the voting public DON'T KNOW THAT , and they like it that way .

    Third I will support every bit of research and anecdotal evidence skimming I can ... because I DO believe it is building a case for us to present.

    Fourth I will spread the word more to those who want to listen , rather than try and bludgeon it into those who's very presence means they have a vested interest in not listening.

    Fifth ,I will throw my weight into a vaping organisation that has their shit together ... hopefully the working group from here will be that one !

    Sixth I shall poke only bears as a last resort ... because I am damn sure there is a very bored lawyer somewhere staring at a light bulb and hoping today is the day it goes off !


    And now I must remind myself , that indeed we do live in the most beautiful , free country in the world , where things can and do change , not always for the better I grant , but its not so bad ... No Militia has burnt down my cottage or taken the dog prisoner just yet .

    "Evil only prospers when good men do nothing " So dont do nothing , just think about where and what you are best placed to do ... for everyone , not just ourselves
    Last edited by Fatman; 06-11-13 at 04:41 PM.
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  2. #2
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    Beautiful.......just beautiful........

  3. #3
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    well said fatman - lets only pick the fights we can win - when we can win then

  4. #4
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    Personally, (and this is also just an opinion), I don't care about poking bears, if thats what needs to be done, but I think our greatest weapon against an ignorant public, and government, is too simply grow our numbers. Our strength will be in our diversity, we will have people of all ages, all backgrounds, all political beliefs etc. The more diverse we are, the harder it is to dehumanise, and dismiss us. We need those older people with years of experience and the position and power to do something for others, including politicians, doctors, lawyers, etc. We need the young and enthusiastic. We just need as much diversity as we can get.

    Its much harder to make draconian legislation that sends your Nana, your child, your siblings, your parents, back to the death sticks when you have family and friends that will support you, even when they may not vape themselves. So we should be engaging with the reasonable people in the community, rather than those that are either anti simply for the sake of it, or those already brainwashed by the current system.

    For smokers its too late, they are already dehumanised, and the public have lost sight of the fact that smokers are people, friends, family etc. This is what we need to avoid and fight, because this is what people like Chimpy are trying to do to vapers.

    The fight needs to start at the grass roots level, as a small minority we are not going to be able to win against the vast bulk of ignorance that is the government, unless we have community support.
    GirlyPantz, Quom, Fatman and 5 others like this.
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    STOPPED SMOKING 11/08/13 STARTED VAPING 11/08/13

  5. #5
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    Well said Mr Fatmans. Very well said indeed. I honestly believe changes will happen, sooner or later, but I don't know what form they will take. I suspect a lot rests on what happens elsewhere around the world and something of a 'wait and see' approach is being taken, if only because we don't register too high on the radar.

    I think we need to be prepared, and I think the proposed AVA is the best suggestion I've seen to date. We need to supply it with the best of ammunition and then provide it with weight of numbers, so should it come to war (which I fervently hope it does not), then it is prepared to fight for us as a unified front. I've said it before, but I think the critical factor for an AVA will be achieving a critical mass in terms of vapers in this country and registered members. Individual efforts, while having the best of attention, carry little weight behind them and may only server to attract attention we're not prepared for.

    We have a government that is in a far more fragile position than they admit to. (https://newmatilda.com/2013/09/24/th...d-abbotts-gone) Should we continue to convert smokers and build an AVA that has a significant membership and influence, it would be far harder to ignore than a few individuals. There's 5000+ members that registered with AVF and close to a thousand of those are active members. We all know we're just the tip of the iceberg and there's a lot more vapers who just read and never join, or vape and don't even know we exist. If the status quo is allowed to continue for just a few years more then we have a huge chance for the AVA to grow into a powerful entitity that can stand up for us against any legislative insanity that may arise. I don't think this issue will ever be enough of a core value for any political party to ignore an association of 50 or 100 thousand members that can say straight out 'Do that and our votes are going to the other guys'. Not to mention the fact that our oppenents arguments are being carved to pieces more and more as the science hits the table.

    I think the question really is, should we put our energy and enthusiasm into something that could end up being our saviour, or do we keep 'poking the sleeping bear' as FM says.
    Fatman, Olfella and spud like this.

  6. #6
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    *sneeks up to bear cave, installs speakers out of reach, builds a fortified wall that cannot be demolished, runs wires from speakers to a kick ass sound system, cranks volume to "ear bleeding" and presses play.... High5 and the wiggles* justice served IMO, with a dash of sweet sweet revenge for measure
    spud likes this.

  7. #7
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    Well said Fatman. An organised front will always be more effective. I personally believe one of the biggest things against vaping is the public perception that we are using electronic "cigarettes".....they're not cigarettes, never have been and never will be and one of the biggest things against the public perception comes from within the vaping industry itself.....so called cigalikes. The industry should be distancing itself as much as possible from things that are meant to simulate a cigarette and move towards personal vapourisers as a device and vaping as an activity. And convey that difference to the public (and a lot of the people making these regulations and rulings.....a lot of them seem to be woefully uninformed about even the devices let alone the effects).
    spud likes this.

  8. #8
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    Timely thread Mr FM

    I alternate between being passionately behind the push for change and the head in the sand self absorbed what about me.

    I have always believed regulation around Vaping will occur and that i would deal with it when it happens. I also used to think it was just common sense that the health professionals in our beautiful country would see the same light that I did and support the population's attempt to switch from smoking to vaping. Now i am not so sure. We have stockpiled and will continue to do so to give us time to adjust to whatever comes.

    I personally wouldn't poke the bears but at least provoking them might just lead to a resolution and would give us a target to work on. At the moment it seems we react to each headline and piece of information. We are not at the table of stakeholders in the genuine discussions around e-cigs/eliquid. There is no point debating or complaining to people or organisations who cannot make any decisions to change. When the agenda and decision making players are made public then we can plan a strategy.
    margyb, Fatman, 308hjute and 3 others like this.
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    I am sitting on the fence here
    Not sure which side to get on

  10. #10
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    I personally believe the bear is well and truly awake but currently has better things to do. When regulation time comes around - and god knows Chappy is doing his best to encourage that - we can see the regulators are more likely to err towards further restricting. I mean we have orgs right now trying to state ecigs are illegal, and WA trying to criminalise the sale of no nic ecigs. I think we have to let our opinions be known, otherwise these decisions will be made without the regulators even knowing about a resistance. Vapers world wide are a pretty noisy bunch so we may end up having more influence than we expect.
    margyb and spud like this.

 

 
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