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Thread: Your thoughts on Australian legislation?

  1. #1
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    Question Your thoughts on Australian legislation?

    Hi all,
    I'm curious what other people's opinions are on what legislation (if any) would actually be a good thing regarding the sale of eCigs and liquid containing nicotine in Australia. I see that there is general feeling of "let sleeping dogs lie" on these boards, and that is fair enough, but after doing that Queensland survey the other week, it bothers me a little that there must be a lot of variation in what vapers think would be acceptable. That being the case, without any kind of consensus, if and when they do get around to regulating it might not go well for us.

    So, in a perfect world where rational, informed and unbiased people made the rules, what rules do you think they should make?

  2. #2
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    In a word - NONE.

    Leave it alone! There is a wise old saying "If it ain't broke".......

    We live in enough of a "Nanny State" as it is, let alone regulators making more rules and putting even more restrictions on us. This is how it starts and then you get decisions based on quack science, fear, lies misinformation and then more importantly money (Big Tobacco \ Big Pharmaceutical and Government Taxes) and the next thing you know we are all fighting like hell to enjoy what we used to have!

    Legislation and enforcement cost's money and we then get the privilege of paying for it. Not only that everybody wants a piece of the action and before you know it your paying $50 for a 30m bottle of juice because you now have to buy regulated e-juice from pharmaceutical companies which are then taxed, and even more if they class is as a "tobacco product" we are now paying $120 because of "sin tax".

    Don't believe me - Bought a packet of smokes lately?

    This will end up driving people away from even trying vaping in the first place and trying to quit. I know one of the reasons why I wanted to quit was the price of a packet of smokes was getting ridiculous and I was paying way to much for the pleasure of killing myself. If they make it unaffordable it will keep people on tobacco (which is great for Government and Taxes) people won't even give it a go!

    Just my $0.02
    Last edited by Haza; 03-02-14 at 04:25 AM.
    gtadmin, Old Dog, spud and 3 others like this.

  3. #3
    Noe
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    If regulation does come in & it is only a matter of time before it does IMO, we need to be prepared to lobby for what WE want & know to be effective.
    If we simply sit back & allow the Govt. & BP / BT make some deals, we are going to get shafted.
    So I would like to see 100mg/ml unflavored nic. allowed to be sold from specialty vendors (much like the vendors we have now) & premixed juice allowed for sale in the same places tobacco is allowed to be sold now, as high as 36mg/ml or at the very least 24mg/ml & all the way down to 0mg/ml.
    Sure it's going to cost more from a service station & probably even a supermarket but this is what is going to have vaping going mainstream & seeing more smokers convert.

    I think that most of us, when we first started vaping, having no idea of pricing, would have been happy to pay $12 for 10ml of juice from a service station or $10 from a supermarket, after we realised it would last 2-3 days.
    By the same standards, smoking a pack a day of cancer sticks would cost 3 -5 times that, so savings are still very real at those prices.
    I know we'd all prefer to pay less but looking at it realistically, the Govt. is going to want it's cut, if it doesn't get that cut, we aren't going to see nic juice easily accessible to the larger population.
    Hopefully, when the time comes, the Govt. take a serious look at vaping & how to encourage it rather than stifling it & handing it over to BT/BP.
    lozza 82 and Rossco like this.
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  4. #4
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    The average for a "toxic" level of nicotine is really quite debatable tbh, and we aren't going to see any movement from the big sleeping bear until studies clarify that. I'd like to see a 100mg limit, but that's being hopeful. The only real regulation needs to concern quality in my opinion.

  5. #5
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    Self regulation is working fine..Juice made by vapers,for vapers...

    Had a discussion with a vendor and would like for vendors to be able to sell juice containing nic.
    They may have to pay for a Safe handling course and get a certificate but the Gov will benefit
    from having tax stay here instead of going O/S for nic.

    That may stop anyone thinking of setting up a cowboy/backyard/underground unsafe operation
    distributing nic..We here are clued up and wouldn't get sucked into that but for newbies it would be a disaster
    and fodder for the Gov to say we told you it will kill you..

    If yas get what I am trying to say...
    maggie likes this.

  6. #6
    pdf
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    The problem with the status quo is that it makes it very difficult for new vapers to switch from cigarettes - as soon as they hear about having to import nic, etc, many people just put it straight in the too-hard basket.
    Greg and Rossco like this.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haza View Post
    In a word - NONE.

    Leave it alone! There is a wise old saying "If it ain't broke".......

    We live in enough of a "Nanny State" as it is, let alone regulators making more rules and putting even more restrictions on us. This is how it starts and then you get decisions based on quack science, fear, lies misinformation and then more importantly money (Big Tobacco \ Big Pharmaceutical and Government Taxes) and the next thing you know we are all fighting like hell to enjoy what we used to have!

    Legislation and enforcement cost's money and we then get the privilege of paying for it. Not only that everybody wants a piece of the action and before you know it your paying $50 for a 30m bottle of juice because you now have to buy regulated e-juice from pharmaceutical companies which are then taxed, and even more if they class is as a "tobacco product" we are now paying $120 because of "sin tax".

    Don't believe me - Bought a packet of smokes lately?

    This will end up driving people away from even trying vaping in the first place and trying to quit. I know one of the reasons why I wanted to quit was the price of a packet of smokes was getting ridiculous and I was paying way to much for the pleasure of killing myself. If they make it unaffordable it will keep people on tobacco (which is great for Government and Taxes) people won't even give it a go!

    Just my $0.02
    I'd have to agree on your comment Haza. This country would tax anything that moved, and if it didn't move they'd give it a dam good shove
    spud likes this.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noe View Post
    If regulation does come in & it is only a matter of time before it does IMO, we need to be prepared to lobby for what WE want & know to be effective.
    If we simply sit back & allow the Govt. & BP / BT make some deals, we are going to get shafted.
    So I would like to see 100mg/ml unflavored nic. allowed to be sold from specialty vendors (much like the vendors we have now) & premixed juice allowed for sale in the same places tobacco is allowed to be sold now, as high as 36mg/ml or at the very least 24mg/ml & all the way down to 0mg/ml.
    Sure it's going to cost more from a service station & probably even a supermarket but this is what is going to have vaping going mainstream & seeing more smokers convert.

    I think that most of us, when we first started vaping, having no idea of pricing, would have been happy to pay $12 for 10ml of juice from a service station or $10 from a supermarket, after we realised it would last 2-3 days.
    By the same standards, smoking a pack a day of cancer sticks would cost 3 -5 times that, so savings are still very real at those prices.
    I know we'd all prefer to pay less but looking at it realistically, the Govt. is going to want it's cut, if it doesn't get that cut, we aren't going to see nic juice easily accessible to the larger population.
    Hopefully, when the time comes, the Govt. take a serious look at vaping & how to encourage it rather than stifling it & handing it over to BT/BP.
    At least with this forum we will have records Noe on what type of increases are actually placed on ecig products

  9. #9
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    I think we need to educate our politicians as to what vaping is and how it works for us as a consumer product
    You only have to see what the EU vapers are doing contacting their MP's and MEP's and educating them and getting them on our side
    We need to all be active in doing this in each state in Australia
    A recent article on this forum stated that 40% of (overseas) doctors thought nicotine was carcinogenic so you can imagine what the pollies think

    EDUCATE them in a polite way I believe and the sooner the better
    lozza 82, spud and maggie like this.

  10. #10
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    Haza, I totally appreciate the sentiment mate, but I was hoping this thread would be less about f*** the government, and more about what would actually work, you know, in an ideal world. Current system IS broken in the sense that I can't just go down the shop and buy some 36mg in the flavour of my choice. It is broken in the sense that if I want to set up a friend or relative on eCigs, to not break the law I have to direct them to the internet to buy nicotine. Which means they can't start today, they have to wait for shipping.

    Quote Originally Posted by Noe View Post
    If regulation does come in & it is only a matter of time before it does IMO, we need to be prepared to lobby for what WE want & know to be effective.
    If we simply sit back & allow the Govt. & BP / BT make some deals, we are going to get shafted.
    Yep, this.

    Since tobacco retail laws are state based, at some stage politicians will no doubt ban it in every state except Canberra, like they did with hardcore porn and firecrackers.

    On the 100mg limit, isn't that thinking from the perspective of the current climate? If shopfronts could get a nic retailer license for $250 (that's the registration fee to be a tobacconist in NSW) then why would people need to buy 100mg? I mean, nobody vapes 100mg straight do they? To me 100mg is not really a consumer product, it is the realm of the DIY hobbyist under the current laws, but if we had proper laws it would also become the realm of the importer/wholesaler/reseller rather than the consumer. People are buying 100mg from overseas now because we have to, but that's only because we can't buy 36mg at the local supermarket. Which is not to say importing should be restricted, just that if nicotine was available locally like it should be then there'd be less 100mg concentrate sitting around in people's homes.

    There's no justification for government to tax it like tobacco, a "sin tax" on eCigs would be literal murder. But yeah, quality and labelling standards similar to food products would be good, a list of ingredients, whether the base fluid is industrial, food or pharma grade, accurate percentages... If Govt. wanted to raise money off nicotine and protect the public health, rather than tax it to death they could simply set standards on it to make Australian standards the highest in the World. They could specify it must be made from pure, pharma grade bases, must not contain diethylene or whatever is the bad chemical of the day, then we could actually export quality juice back to China.

 

 
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