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Thread: Nicotine Poison Re-Scheduling Goals?

  1. #1
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    Nicotine Poison Re-Scheduling Goals?

    Most relevant mentions of nicotine in current poisons standards:



    SCHEDULE 4 : Prescription Only Medicine, or Prescription Animal Remedy – Substances, the use or supply of which should be by or on the order of persons permitted by State or Territory legislation to prescribe and should be available from a pharmacist on prescription.

    NICOTINE in preparations for human therapeutic use except for use as an aid in withdrawal from tobacco smoking
    in preparations for oromucosal or transdermal use.




    Its not mentioned but I'm pretty sure NRT products are under Schedule 2:

    SCHEDULE 2 : Pharmacy Medicine – Substances, the safe use of which may require advice from a pharmacist and which should be available from a pharmacy or, where a pharmacy service is not available, from a licensed person.




    SCHEDULE 6 : Poison – Substances with a moderate potential for causing harm, the extent of which can be reduced through the use of distinctive packaging with strong warnings and safety directions on the label.

    NICOTINE in preparations containing 3 per cent or less of nicotine when labelled and packed for the treatment of
    animals.





    SCHEDULE 7 : Dangerous Poison – Substances with a high potential for causing harm at low exposure and which require special precautions during manufacture, handling or use. These poisons should be available only to specialised or authorised users who have the skills necessary to handle them safely. Special regulations restricting their availability, possession, storage or use may apply.


    NICOTINE except:
    (a) when included in Schedule 6;
    (b) in preparations for human therapeutic use; or
    (c) in tobacco prepared and packed for smoking.






    I think we should aim to add to the Schedule 7 exception list:

    (d) in preparations containing 4.8 per cent or less when labelled and packed for Vaping

    Or 7.2% or 10% or whichever limit we can all decide on. They used the word "smoking" in exception (c), so I think its fair that it should include "vaping" also.

    Or possibly, add to Schedule 6

    NICOTINE in preparations containing 4.8 per cent or less when labelled and packed for Vaping

    Alternatively, if you think nicotine liquids should only be sold in Pharmacies without prescription, aim to have nicotine liquids for vaping included into schedule 2

    Your thoughts?
    Last edited by mavinry4; 08-02-14 at 08:42 AM.

  2. #2
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    Sounds good, but the next thing on the agenda will be is have you got a license for that substance. I personally think there will be a myriad of warnings depending on what you are purchasing. For example a 250ml bottle of 100mg nic will be in a completely different category as opposed to a 30ml bottle of 12mg premade juice.
    Last edited by Rossco; 08-02-14 at 09:49 AM.
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  3. #3
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    Mav - this sounds reasonable. the percentage is high enough for almost everyone though 5.4% would allow for triplers to hit 18mg.
    I'm guessing that if nic could be purchased locally then 10% wouldn't really be needed by the average vaper. I've got some 10% but that's just my TFH shining in the sun ;-). I wouldn't even mind purchasing from a pharmacy as long as a script wasn't needed.
    As I've said on this forum before - we have to let "them" get some "wins" whilst keeping availability, freedom and the safety / health of vapers and future vapers as our key concerns. Intelligent discussion and reasonable negotiation (compromise to a certain extent) will be needed but as soon as the "Nic is evil" Vs "Don't tell me what to do with my body" camps start to square off things become exponentially more difficult (add to that BT & BP and it starts too look impossible).
    In any case just my 2CW & thanks for your dedication to informing us and promoting intelligent debate. :-)
    Last edited by Pipesub; 08-02-14 at 12:11 PM.
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  4. #4
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    most people buy 100mg nic and mix it at home, its the second easiest to mix, if you like 1.8mg level, you add 1.8mm to every 10mm, so basically to make 10 ml of ejuice you need
    1.8 mm of nic
    8.2 mm of vg/pg/flavours

    if yo want 30 ml, just multiply by 3 etc
    If you want 1.2mg 10ml add 1.2 mm nic and 8.8mm others
    100mg shouldn't be controlled, its no more dangerous than liquid plumber, or liquid insect repellent, or weed killer, spray non-stick butter spray. etc I could easily find over a dozen things just as dangerous at a grocery store or bunnings.
    Jeff

  5. #5
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    Aussievapes, I cant see the Govt approving 100mg because it makes the maths of DIY easy. I reckon the highest strength we would be able to purchase will have to be based on the "potential" for misuse. If it is as "safe" as 36 or 48mg, then it may be possible.




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  6. #6
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    Vapers currently buy 100mg now not just to make the maths easier. It is mostly due to availability here. If we could easily walk into a shop somewhere and buy the strength we want, then why would anyone want to buy 100mg?

    I vape at 12mg. I make my juices into doublers so I just have to add 24mg. If I knew I could run out of 24mg and head down to the closest pharmacy to buy some more 24mg - say a 50ml bottle or whatever - then I would not have to stockpile the shit, and would definitely take this option. Similarly if I could chuck some onto my next Aussie vendor order.

    Mav. although I haven't spoken to the other interim members of the AVA yet about this, I think it may be one of the first things on the agenda for the newly voted in committee to start agitating for. But these are my personal thoughts only atm.

    We have to get it right though, which means discussion about should it be pharmacy only, or should vape vendors be allowed to sell it too? Should it be vendors only, thereby stopping access to it by non vapers? If only vendors sell it, what about the smokers who would use it to quit? Bearing in mind they would still have to buy equipment from a vendor?

    And like already mentioned by pipesub, we have to let them have some wins. That is an important point to keep in mind.

  7. #7
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    Personally I feel 100mg is just fine and shouldn't be regulated only taxed with GST at customs then the governments gets a cut to shut them up.
    anything higher like 1000mg should have the highest control know to man, like big companies with proper inspected labs, with high ventilation and acid gloves and rubber suites, I don't even think ejuice venders should be allowed to handle 1000mg, they aren't lab technicians. I can't see myself mixing anything higher or lower than 100mg,plus it takes 50% less space storing in the freezer than 48mg.

  8. #8
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    even if i could buy nic in the supermarket here, i'd get 100mg/ml. it makes it so easy. 36mg/ml is ok if you want to mix doublers to 18mg/ml, but anything else gets a bit complex for me. i'm a simple kinda gal and like to keep things as straight forward and easy as possible.
    GirlyPantz, lou, Rossco and 1 others like this.

  9. #9
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    As a mechanic I work with dangerous fluids all day every day, a little 100mg nic spilled on my hand doesn't phase me in the slightest. Fresh brake fluid or a caustic degreaser you know when you get that stuff on you it burns I would have to spill a lot of 100mg before I'd even be concerned

    Yeah it is a poison and you must respect the potential for harm but I think you'd have a hard time doing any actual damage to yourself by using some relatively mild nicotine

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by keyboardmama View Post
    Vapers currently buy 100mg now not just to make the maths easier. It is mostly due to availability here. If we could easily walk into a shop somewhere and buy the strength we want, then why would anyone want to buy 100mg?

    I vape at 12mg. I make my juices into doublers so I just have to add 24mg. If I knew I could run out of 24mg and head down to the closest pharmacy to buy some more 24mg - say a 50ml bottle or whatever - then I would not have to stockpile the shit, and would definitely take this option. Similarly if I could chuck some onto my next Aussie vendor order.

    Mav. although I haven't spoken to the other interim members of the AVA yet about this, I think it may be one of the first things on the agenda for the newly voted in committee to start agitating for. But these are my personal thoughts only atm.

    We have to get it right though, which means discussion about should it be pharmacy only, or should vape vendors be allowed to sell it too? Should it be vendors only, thereby stopping access to it by non vapers? If only vendors sell it, what about the smokers who would use it to quit? Bearing in mind they would still have to buy equipment from a vendor?

    And like already mentioned by pipesub, we have to let them have some wins. That is an important point to keep in mind.
    I rarely bring this up because I get a lot of crap from DIYers whenever I do.

    Personally, I don't think nicotine ejuice should be easily available above 24mg/mL, atleast to begin with.

    The first step would be to get the the usual 0mg, 6mg, 12mg, 18mg, 24mg ejuices available from both Vapeshops and Pharmacies. Meanwhile, those who want to keep importing nicotine liquids above 24mg/mL should still be able to do so.

    I've found that arguments against this idea often come from DIYers who are just stubborn in their thinking and unwilling to compromise. If DIY nicotine liquids were available locally, the markup that local sellers would put on them would be the same cost as shipping. And anyone who buys DIY nicotine buys it in bulk, so there's no excuse to "suddenly" run out of DIY nicotine.

    I can take care of myself when it comes to nicotine. All the political advocacy you get from me is because I'm looking out for my family. I know for a fact, that if my brother, who stubbornly continues to smoke, would convert to ecigs overnight if nicotine ejuices were available by a 5 minute drive up the road to the nearest Chemist or Brick&Mortar vape shop.

    If we were to vote on a nicotine limit, I would vote for 24mg/mL limit local sale, 100mg/mL limit import. I think in the end, those purchasing greater than 24mg/mL are going to be a very small percentage of vapers, that regulating imports and self mixing wont be such an issue. Most smokers are not going to want to mix their ejuices themselves.

    I think SC might actually be right about this in terms of the proportion of Vapers who only buy Premixed ejuices verses those Vapers who prefer to mix their own ejuice:

    Last edited by mavinry4; 09-02-14 at 07:45 PM.
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