Results 1 to 9 of 9
Like Tree13Likes
  • 2 Post By Mathy
  • 2 Post By Altered1
  • 3 Post By Rynxa
  • 3 Post By Rynxa
  • 3 Post By margyb

Thread: Oh Oh! Cat among the pigeons?

  1. #1
    AVF Regular
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    Semaphore, SA
    Posts
    868

    Oh Oh! Cat among the pigeons?

    From Dr. Farsalinos via ECF, playing Devil's Advocate?

    Is e-cigarette industry the biggest enemy of the e-cigarette today?
    GirlyPantz and spud like this.

  2. #2
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Home,NSW
    Posts
    2,478
    Surprised who me?....Nahh already said it.


    Who put him in charge?

  3. #3
    AVF Regular
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Sydney Australia
    Posts
    3,577
    This seems to put BigT and BigP in an ideal position, they have the budget and experience to achieve this?

  4. #4
    AVF Regular
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    3,690
    Well, doesn't the TPD put ecigs outside the grasp of pharmaceuticals, and the testing required? Why not apply food grade tests? The food industry requirements are already defined and clear
    spud and AstroBoy like this.




    Gaffer Tape is like The Force - it has a light side, a dark side, and it holds the universe together

    Without specific approval, No one has permission to quote me outside of AVF

  5. #5
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Home,NSW
    Posts
    2,478
    Quote Originally Posted by Altered1 View Post
    Well, doesn't the TPD put ecigs outside the grasp of pharmaceuticals, and the testing required? Why not apply food grade tests? The food industry requirements are already defined and clear
    This is where ANZFA comes in.

  6. #6
    AVF Regular
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Perth
    Posts
    5,952
    Quote Originally Posted by Mathy View Post
    From Dr. Farsalinos via ECF, playing Devil's Advocate?

    Is e-cigarette industry the biggest enemy of the e-cigarette today?
    The link doesn't work for me?

  7. #7
    AVF Regular
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    2,140
    He's right, though.
    The e-cig industry SHOULD have started the testing process and definition process on it's own. No one wanted to part with their money to do it. The EU is officially out of the "golden age" of vaping and the TPD is a reality there now.

    Why weren't people funding testing? Why weren't people pushing for a legal distinction between e-cigarettes and tobacco products until last year?

    This is why I think the argument, "Nah, don't poke the bear," is rubbish.
    GirlyPantz, margyb and spud like this.
    Words are fun.
    Steam powered and smoke free since January 2013.
    Addiction is bad, let me explain it to you after I finish this coffee.

  8. #8
    AVF Regular
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    2,140
    Quote Originally Posted by JenJ View Post
    The link doesn't work for me?
    Here ya go:

    Details
    Created on Saturday, 15 March 2014 15:26

    Is e-cigarette industry the biggest enemy of the e-cigarette today?



    By Dr Farsalinos

    It is very common to see vapers attacking everyone for improper regulation or for efforts to restrict e-cigarette use and development. Whether it is regulators, Big Pharma, Big Tobacco, journalists, scientists, some parts of the e-cigarette industry itself (for example, TVECA) etc. Maybe in some cases they are right, maybe in other cases they exaggerate. However, in my opinion this is not the real picture. The EU regulation is now a reality. Perhaps it could have been better; perhaps it was the best that could be achieved. The most important thing is to look forward by seeing the mistakes of the past, and prevent any future mistakes. But is the e-cigarette industry doing this?

    Before the TPD there was in reality no organized e-cigarette industry. Despite the fact that it was inevitable for regulators to address the issue of e-cigarettes in the TPD (which we all knew would come up in December 2012), the industry was caught by surprise. They tried to organize themselves in a matter of few weeks to months. They hired PR companies and law firms. To some point they were successful, if we can consider success the fact that e-cigarette was not classified as medication or banned while ignoring the negative aspects of the regulation (e.g. nicotine limits).

    In reality, the future is more important and crucial that the past. The TPD is just a vague approach to some requirements needed before releasing a product to the market. The true impact of the regulation comes from the negotiations that have started now, which will specify the tests, conditions and requirements needed. But what is the industry doing for this?

    The industry should be extremely active in this process. They should have started this process YESTERDAY. Unlike legal issues, defining and implementing testing protocols is an extremely complicated process. Do they believe that they have the knowledge or the people who can do it? PR firms and lawyers are useless in this case. Will they define what test should be done in every liquid, what should be done in every atomiser, which protocol should be followed and why? In reality they know nothing about e-cigarette testing. Protocols for regulatory purposes should have specific standards. They should be feasible, realistic, accurate and reproducible. And right now we have no idea about anything.

    For example, I am the only one who has done cytotoxic tests on e-liquid vapor. The studies have been published in peer-reviewed medical journals. However, in order to implement any protocol for regulatory purposes you have to assess a huge list of parameters: cell stability, accuracy of the results, reproducibility of the results (which by itself is a separate complicated protocol and not just doing some repetitions), consistency in results, and appropriateness of the protocol for the testing purpose. You should start by planning and programming the whole procedure, defining which tests and protocols could theoretically be used, and test each one of them with a pre-specified protocol to define which will be chosen. You should start by defining a standardized e-cigarette device that should be used as comparator for every test. After completing all tests, you should prepare a detailed report (and even a publication), with results and proper explanation of the procedure and the reasons for proposing the X protocol instead of the Y protocol. Who is going to do that? The lawyers? The PR people? The businessmen? Who is going to fund that? The vapers (as some from the e-cigarette industry have publicly suggested in the past)? Is anyone with knowledge and experience with e-cigarette research being involved in this process? None to my knowledge (we are a handful of scientists involved in research, so we know each other and speak almost every day). You may find a lot of laboratories willing to do the tests, but if they have no idea about the product itself they are just respected scientists who are unable (or even dangerous) to help in this field (I have many examples for this).

    I am afraid it is already too late. All this process takes a long time and needs a lot of programming and funding. In reality, there is a huge risk that any inappropriate proposal and subsequent implementation will kill the e-cigarette. The lack of knowledge and testing and the lack of proposals based on evidence are more dangerous than the TPD regulation itself. It is the e-cigarette industry which is now the biggest enemy of the e-cigarette, by being inactive and by failing to act promptly, fast and methodologically.

    I hope that this is not considered as an attack against the industry but as a free piece of advice. From a public health perspective, it is of outmost importance that proper and realistic testing should be implementing, ensuring the quality of the product without overly restricting it. Until now, the mentality and approach of the e-cigarette industry is completely wrong, and I am not sure there is enough time to change this. However, better be late than never.
    GirlyPantz, margyb and JenJ like this.
    Words are fun.
    Steam powered and smoke free since January 2013.
    Addiction is bad, let me explain it to you after I finish this coffee.

  9. #9
    AVF Regular
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Hobart Tasmania
    Posts
    5,658
    Added to Dr Farsalinos facebook page


    Konstantinos Farsalinos
    I am talking about the current e-cig industry. The purpose is to have some competition in the market and not end up with a BT monopoly. But the rules of the game are that you should provide proper information. With a lot of talking and no evidence it is inevitable that BT will be the only player at the end.

 

 

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.4
Copyright © 2019 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.
Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.6.0
All times are GMT +11. The time now is 11:52 AM.