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Thread: Diacetyl and coffee workers

  1. #1
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    Diacetyl and coffee workers

    CDC warns coffee workers of hazardous chemicals
    Gasping for Action | A Journal Sentinel Watchdog Update - CDC warns coffee workers of hazardous chemicals

    *Wonders how many flavors are actually considered "safe" or not contain ickky ingredients (like human fetus) and what vaping could in the long term look like.. Wonders also if vaping may have a longer term effect on food flavor production standards?
    Last edited by rebelagainstthemachine; 05-10-15 at 09:56 AM.
    CMB likes this.
    ďBut I donít want to go among mad people," Alice remarked.
    "Oh, you canít help that," said the Cat: "weíre all mad here. Iím mad. Youíre mad."
    "How do you know Iím mad?" said Alice.
    "You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldnít have come here.Ē
    Lewis Carroll, Alice in Wonderland






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  2. #2
    CMB
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    Flavouring is the elephant in the room in vaping, and is where a lot of advocates make dickheads out of themselves and spread the same kind of BS as the anti-vapers.

    Like this old chestnut "There's only 4 ingredients in eliquid; propylene glycol, nicotine, vegetable glycerine and flavouring". That might be true if you only vape a single molecule flavour, like Menthol, but that's not how it's done for many.

    I was curious and wanted to see what components were in a simple 3 ingredient Strawberries and Cream mix using TFA ingredients (Strawberry (ripe), Bavarian Cream and Vanilla Bean Ice Cream)

    So I went here Perfumer's Apprentice

    And found that in that mix my ingredients would be

    Nicotine
    PG
    VG
    Butyrate <2-methyl-, ethyl->
    Pineapple ketone
    Maltol 118-71-8
    Butanoic acid, 2-methyl-
    3-Hexen-1-ol, (Z)-
    Hex-(3Z)-enyl acetate
    Butanoate <butyl->
    ethyl caproate
    Ethyl Vanillin
    Vanillin
    Butyrate <ethyl->
    Acetylpropionyl
    Isoamyl Isovalerate
    Ethyl Maltol
    Cyclotene/Corylone
    Dodecalactone <gamma->
    Cyclotene/Corylone
    Veratraldehyde
    Guaethol <propenyl->
    Coumarin <3,4-dihydro->

    A bit more than 4 lol

    I have NFI about the inhalation risks of any of those ingredients apart from the purported risk from acetyl propionol. Yes I know there are more chemicals in cigarettes, yes I know some people live in cities and inhale toxic gasses all day long...but at the end of the day I think the flavouring issue is going to be the biggest hurdle for the law makers to come to terms with.
    gtadmin, Fatman, btobw and 4 others like this.

  3. #3
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    Well CMB off the bat heres one about Coumarin Coumarin In Cinnamon Causes Liver Damage In Some People - Medical News Today But as much as I agree with you - I dont think crazy people chasing vendors to test their products or be ostracized is the right way to go either

    Truth is I had a thought earlier about this - and came to the conclusion that if not for flavors many people would not have switched to vaping at all -

    In fact there have been a few that have posted on this forum and others about having trouble with vaping bc they were not able to find a flavor to settle on

    Off the top of my head some danger flavors that could go include

    Banana
    Any creams
    Custards
    Cinnamon
    any butter flavors
    Coffee by the looks of it
    Pineapple
    Citrus flavours
    Sour flavours
    Honeysuckle
    maraschino cherry
    wintergreen
    Liquid containing Triacetin can soften or crack plastic
    Some bakery flavors may be affected and more

    Maybe its this kind of suspect list that keeps flavouring as your elephant in the room?

    And so I suppose there is are questions to be asked - does the vaping community go out of its way to identify all potential bad chemicals (which weren't really designed for inhaling anyways) or do they push someone else to do it? If so who?

    How many flavors are the vaping community really willing to give up to prevent potential long term issues? and what potential affects could this have on newbies wanting to switch over?

    How should this issue be approached considering, in reality it would be less fussy for legislators to avoid all problems (including potential law suits) and ban vaping outright

    Theres prolly more - but think that in terms of the few bad chemicals we already know about that caution or at least an adult discussion is warranted atm before going screaming and crying about it

    In the end tho- If you want to be safe - dont use any flavour -

    if you want to be completely safe dont vape

    If itsa about harm reduction you accept some risk - if its about no harm well thats up to you - but others should stock up
    gtadmin, Fatman and Bassman like this.
    ďBut I donít want to go among mad people," Alice remarked.
    "Oh, you canít help that," said the Cat: "weíre all mad here. Iím mad. Youíre mad."
    "How do you know Iím mad?" said Alice.
    "You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldnít have come here.Ē
    Lewis Carroll, Alice in Wonderland






    Comic Database: Steve Hughes... Offended?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHMoDt3nSHs











  4. #4
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    I sort of disagree
    acetoin and acetyl propionyl and Diacetyl are know to be in reasonable levels damaging to your lungs there are tons of flavours & flavour companies (like flavour art) that sell acetoin, acetyl propionyl, Diacetyl free liquid there is no real reason that eliquid manufactures cant change to a safer alternative!
    I think there is a fundamental difference between selling something that you know there are dangerous chemical in it v's selling something that to the best of your knowledge you know is safe...... acetoin, acetyl propionyl, Diacetyl is not going to kill you over night and quite possibly will never kill you but it will cause lung damage and who wants that!
    Elquid companies for the record should do the test as they are imo the most liable if lawyers get involved. And lets face it if there is enough profit for 1000's of them to open shop I dont think a few thousand dollars is to much for them to spend on testing all there products if there uncertain about whats in it!
    The industry should do something otherwise governments will do something over the top imo!
    And for the record that whole scare about cinnamon was supposedly BS they use flavoring concentrate which meant cinnamon exposure was at like 100x what it normally would be if you just vaped a cinnamon roll flavour or something similar.

    and to answer your first question a random study of a few hundred eliquids from a few dozen companies from EU and the US found something like 74% had acetoin, acetyl propionyl, Diacetyl in them. They study did however target flavors that were most likely to have it in them and not all of the elquids in that 74% had unacceptable levels!
    Last edited by DeadKaiser; 15-10-15 at 10:05 PM.

  5. #5
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    I think if any chemical should be taken out of vaping it should be Dihydrogen Monoxide Dihydrogen Monoxide Research Division - dihydrogen monoxide info .. Dunno why they haven't tested for it .. the shit is dangerous.. I vote pitchforks now!
    BrianS likes this.
    ďBut I donít want to go among mad people," Alice remarked.
    "Oh, you canít help that," said the Cat: "weíre all mad here. Iím mad. Youíre mad."
    "How do you know Iím mad?" said Alice.
    "You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldnít have come here.Ē
    Lewis Carroll, Alice in Wonderland






    Comic Database: Steve Hughes... Offended?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHMoDt3nSHs











  6. #6
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    My fave liquid can crack plastic tanks
    Works in a kayfun just fine
    RIP 22.12.2016

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by rebelagainstthemachine View Post
    I think if any chemical should be taken out of vaping it should be Dihydrogen Monoxide Dihydrogen Monoxide Research Division - dihydrogen monoxide info .. Dunno why they haven't tested for it .. the shit is dangerous.. I vote pitchforks now!
    Im sure i missed a 100 chemical that should be tested for in elquids and should not be there however the point i was really trying to make is selling something that you know is harmful without warning customers is in by opinion is wrong especially when you can easily just use 'safe' favouring in your eliquid.

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianS View Post
    My fave liquid can crack plastic tanks
    Works in a kayfun just fine
    Yer that always freaked me out a bit a well I assume its the high acidic levels in the juice that cause the cracking but i still have no idea if your also then vapin plastercide or whether its safe and no plastic is diluted into the ejuice. Thats one of the primary reasons i tend to stick with glass tanks!

  8. #8
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    Welp either way Deadkaiser.. looks like the rock and the hard place thing has begun starting with diacetyl... Study: E-Cigarettes Users Risk Getting Popcorn Lungs - Softpedia and yep there are probably 100 more that I have missed- I agree with warnings but the question is still about how much the community is willing to lose in order to gain, esp since the ANTZ are crazy sadistic types and other greater powers stand to profit in a major way depending on how all legalities pan out (Just look at the so called research paper link I have provided to see that)

    I dont think the onus in this case is so much on the vendors - but rather on the manufacturers who will use the excuse that flavoring is for cooking not inhaling- it even says so on some of their websites .. and I dare you to prove they are lying (you can see also thanks to vince how much a big court case costs) Also like you said there are probably a heap of chems that would need to be addressed - I wonder if they can do this without losing the variety of flavors that we have, which esp new vapers depend on?

    Di acetyl and other chemicals will remain problematic - esp in a litigious society and with science that often is created to serve greater agendas than a vapers.

    But again how much to give up to gain? Even looking at the UK at the moment where vaping has become more politically acceptable - there appears to be a shift towards a medical and controlled model of vaping.. I think that is something to be avoided - and so I propose that risk of diacetyl , Triacetin, and other chemicals shouldnt be shouted from the rooftops by crazy types, who have no idea what they are doing - But rather some sober chat by the whole community (not just a few who claim to representt vapers) needs to take place about the issue on how to go about things with minimal impact to both vapers positive experience of vaping and to the tenuous legalities that surrounds vaping


    In saying all this - I think also that it is important not to fall on every scary sounding word or threat that is put out there on vaping - afterall some of it really is just hype


    Quote Originally Posted by DeadKaiser View Post
    Im sure i missed a 100 chemical that should be tested for in elquids and should not be there however the point i was really trying to make is selling something that you know is harmful without warning customers is in by opinion is wrong especially when you can easily just use 'safe' favouring in your eliquid.



    Yer that always freaked me out a bit a well I assume its the high acidic levels in the juice that cause the cracking but i still have no idea if your also then vapin plastercide or whether its safe and no plastic is diluted into the ejuice. Thats one of the primary reasons i tend to stick with glass tanks!
    Last edited by rebelagainstthemachine; 20-10-15 at 10:12 PM.
    CMB likes this.
    ďBut I donít want to go among mad people," Alice remarked.
    "Oh, you canít help that," said the Cat: "weíre all mad here. Iím mad. Youíre mad."
    "How do you know Iím mad?" said Alice.
    "You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldnít have come here.Ē
    Lewis Carroll, Alice in Wonderland






    Comic Database: Steve Hughes... Offended?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHMoDt3nSHs











  9. #9
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    CMB a question .. Do you think that vape at your own risk type warning labels would help vendors get your message across to vapers and help protect them at the same time?

    Quote Originally Posted by CMB View Post
    Flavouring is the elephant in the room in vaping, and is where a lot of advocates make dickheads out of themselves and spread the same kind of BS as the anti-vapers.

    Like this old chestnut "There's only 4 ingredients in eliquid; propylene glycol, nicotine, vegetable glycerine and flavouring". That might be true if you only vape a single molecule flavour, like Menthol, but that's not how it's done for many.

    I was curious and wanted to see what components were in a simple 3 ingredient Strawberries and Cream mix using TFA ingredients (Strawberry (ripe), Bavarian Cream and Vanilla Bean Ice Cream)

    So I went here Perfumer's Apprentice

    And found that in that mix my ingredients would be

    Nicotine
    PG
    VG
    Butyrate <2-methyl-, ethyl->
    Pineapple ketone
    Maltol 118-71-8
    Butanoic acid, 2-methyl-
    3-Hexen-1-ol, (Z)-
    Hex-(3Z)-enyl acetate
    Butanoate <butyl->
    ethyl caproate
    Ethyl Vanillin
    Vanillin
    Butyrate <ethyl->
    Acetylpropionyl
    Isoamyl Isovalerate
    Ethyl Maltol
    Cyclotene/Corylone
    Dodecalactone <gamma->
    Cyclotene/Corylone
    Veratraldehyde
    Guaethol <propenyl->
    Coumarin <3,4-dihydro->

    A bit more than 4 lol

    I have NFI about the inhalation risks of any of those ingredients apart from the purported risk from acetyl propionol. Yes I know there are more chemicals in cigarettes, yes I know some people live in cities and inhale toxic gasses all day long...but at the end of the day I think the flavouring issue is going to be the biggest hurdle for the law makers to come to terms with.
    ďBut I donít want to go among mad people," Alice remarked.
    "Oh, you canít help that," said the Cat: "weíre all mad here. Iím mad. Youíre mad."
    "How do you know Iím mad?" said Alice.
    "You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldnít have come here.Ē
    Lewis Carroll, Alice in Wonderland






    Comic Database: Steve Hughes... Offended?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHMoDt3nSHs











  10. #10
    CMB
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    Well I don't know and to be honest I am conflicted in my opinions on this, which is why I didn't really elaborate on my previous post.

    I honestly don't think it is unreasonable for companies to test their products for known risks before releasing them to the market, and disclose that info. It's much better than lying about it as most vendors do.

    $200-$300 iper product in testing s absolutely fek all when you are slugging people a buck per ml.

    Sure I get the whole vape at your own risk thing, but when the reality doesn't match the advocacy you kind of have a bit of a problem

 

 
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