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Thread: Random News ... etc etc etc...

  1. #341
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    Ybnice - Not long ago Purple vapes asked on the forum if vapers were not accessing vaping because of lack of knowledge of the internet and more recently there was a conversation article about how to be sneaky in trying to force people to health

    It reminded me very much of a comment that a prominent dentist made on social media about experts and PHDs not being taken seriously in Australia


    This got me thinking

    Australia has been very proud of its tobacco control model over the past 30 years- until now it has been able to deflect questions about pharma and social engineering and even eugenics by using only a couple of power words and phrases - these being lung cancer, big tobacco, taxpayers and health

    and the success of this campaign has lead all whad about the children campaigns to follow the model they have used

    In fact it was Australia that helped turn tobacco control into an industry worth billions of dollars ...

    The thing is with the rise of the internet people have been able to do their own research and as their own questions- the last 30 years has also seen the outcome of quit or die policies which has seen those policies hurt those that those policies were originally meant to protect - meaning things are no longer hidden behind the mystique of expert knowledge - the truth is almost anyone nowadays can be an expert creating a dillema for public health PHDs

    and there are big questions coming out of this

    Like what is the purpose of public health or even why have a healthy society

    what should happen when those policies do more harm then good - like potentially taking away peoples right to vote, their right to access health, basics cards, drug testing and other things

    Can public health admit their failures and change strategies say from a victim blaming approach to a more societal harm reductive approach - could the public forgive them for their screw up?

    and probably above all - given that disadvantaged groups are the most affected by smoking, drugs, obesity etc what should be the final solution if they dont want to conform to self appointed experts ideas of health?


    Things will change in part bc PH will be forced to talk about these things they have done - maybe not straight away but also bc of in part the legalization of say drug and nicotine harm reduction products overseas (as well as the profit)- we will see a change here too- hopefully sooner rather than later

    I think the trick still is very much in being vigilant - confronting misinformation and pointing out the harm and cost in the prohibition model

    So chin up!

    Even if things get worse before they get better - as long as people care there is hope for a good outcome!
    Last edited by rebelagainstthemachine; 08-10-17 at 01:30 PM.
    Fatman, DocM, Wombats1 and 3 others like this.
    NNA AU and general vape advocacy in Australia summed up-
    There is nothing to see here- it has nothing to do with you or vapers - Its not your business...
    Secrecy for the greater good... Enemies are everywhere

    "If you see something ...Say say nothing...
    Then drink to forget ..."
    One of us... one of us...one of us....

  2. #342
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    Um breaking news

    Parliamentary inquiry has found tax hikes are to be blamed for increased black market tobacco - As a result they want more border control police (dumbasses)


    https://au.news.yahoo.com/video/watc...arket-tobacco/
    Fatman, fabricator4, DocM and 3 others like this.
    NNA AU and general vape advocacy in Australia summed up-
    There is nothing to see here- it has nothing to do with you or vapers - Its not your business...
    Secrecy for the greater good... Enemies are everywhere

    "If you see something ...Say say nothing...
    Then drink to forget ..."
    One of us... one of us...one of us....

  3. #343
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    Quote Originally Posted by rebelagainstthemachine View Post
    Um breaking news

    Parliamentary inquiry has found tax hikes are to be blamed for increased black market tobacco - As a result they want more border control police (dumbasses)


    https://au.news.yahoo.com/video/watc...arket-tobacco/
    The black market situation is only going to get much worse. Dumb-asses indeed.
    DocM and emu like this.
    Chris: Tobacco free since 17:00 15th March 2013.

  4. #344
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    Very interesting long interview with Clive Bates

    DocM, AllyP, ybnice and 1 others like this.
    Chris: Tobacco free since 17:00 15th March 2013.

  5. #345
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    Study british psychological society

    E-cigarettes should be promoted as a method of stopping smoking
    https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...1009093205.htm


    Korea
    Imports of e-cigarettes rose sharply since conventional tobacco tax hike in 2015: data
    http://www.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20171010000257


    Puddlecoat posts
    Who's Standing Up To Stop Vaping Being Used As A Tool Of Coercion?

    http://dickpuddlecote.blogspot.com.au/2017/10/whos-standing-up-to-stop-vaping-being.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&u tm_campaign=Feed:+DickPuddlecote+(****+Puddlecote)

    Another Irrelevant E-Cigarette Summit

    http://dickpuddlecote.blogspot.com.au/2017/10/another-irrelevant-e-cigarette-summit.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed& utm_campaign=Feed:+DickPuddlecote+(****+Puddlecote )
    Last edited by rebelagainstthemachine; 11-10-17 at 03:54 AM.
    NNA AU and general vape advocacy in Australia summed up-
    There is nothing to see here- it has nothing to do with you or vapers - Its not your business...
    Secrecy for the greater good... Enemies are everywhere

    "If you see something ...Say say nothing...
    Then drink to forget ..."
    One of us... one of us...one of us....

  6. #346
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    Early morning/ late night brain burp question- We know that anti smoking campaigns have been used to target people in poverty and disadvantaged groups- Smoking is one of the reasons that the basics card (income management) has been brought in, its lead to pauline hanson looking at trying to take away young peoples right to vote- We know that cigarette taxes are plunging people into poverty- and the same campaign has become a template for intrusive drug related drug testing checks- also we know that smokers have been pushed to the back of the line for medical help and are less likely to get early intervention, the issue of smoking in many ways has become a class issue etc etc etc

    So am just wondering if at this stage- Have vaping and snus and harm reduction become civil liberties issues? and wondering if it is known if groups like the Australian or state council of civil liberties and ACCOSS have been approached about it and the benefits of harm reduction like vaping and snus?

    Its just that I know this is all not a human rights issue- kind of - but it does seem to be a civil liberties issue- especially since anti smoking prohibition is used to put more and more hardship on already pressed communities by slowly taking away rights others have - as well as creating a new form of criminal - those who wish to quit and those who wish to make a living helping others quit

    anyways Now I have that question out of my system - I had better get to bed - I have to wake up in a couple of hours
    NNA AU and general vape advocacy in Australia summed up-
    There is nothing to see here- it has nothing to do with you or vapers - Its not your business...
    Secrecy for the greater good... Enemies are everywhere

    "If you see something ...Say say nothing...
    Then drink to forget ..."
    One of us... one of us...one of us....

  7. #347
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    Quote Originally Posted by rebelagainstthemachine View Post
    Early morning/ late night brain burp question- We know that anti smoking campaigns have been used to target people in poverty and disadvantaged groups- Smoking is one of the reasons that the basics card (income management) has been brought in, its lead to pauline hanson looking at trying to take away young peoples right to vote- We know that cigarette taxes are plunging people into poverty- and the same campaign has become a template for intrusive drug related drug testing checks- also we know that smokers have been pushed to the back of the line for medical help and are less likely to get early intervention, the issue of smoking in many ways has become a class issue etc etc etc

    So am just wondering if at this stage- Have vaping and snus and harm reduction become civil liberties issues? and wondering if it is known if groups like the Australian or state council of civil liberties and ACCOSS have been approached about it and the benefits of harm reduction like vaping and snus?

    Its just that I know this is all not a human rights issue- kind of - but it does seem to be a civil liberties issue- especially since anti smoking prohibition is used to put more and more hardship on already pressed communities by slowly taking away rights others have - as well as creating a new form of criminal - those who wish to quit and those who wish to make a living helping others quit

    anyways Now I have that question out of my system - I had better get to bed - I have to wake up in a couple of hours
    It's a good question and I personally believe that it IS a human rights issue, one that I've spent some time thinking about. Access to lower risk products to replace a perfectly legal but horrendously harmful addictive product should be seen as more than just a civil liberties issue.

    The problem is that the main opponents of vaping - WHO and Public Health organisations are seen as a defacto keyholder of Human Rights - right to lead a healthier more productive life. Until they acknowledge the role of THR in their policies, those that make legislation are going to be confused.

    The light at the end of the tunnel is that public health bodies in the UK and NZ are slowly starting to come around. This is the best thing that has ever happened in the world of advocacy because they are going to make it easier for similar bodies in other countries to follow suit. My feeling is that over the next year or two when the figures start coming in for UK and NZ smoking and disease rates, they will start seeing benefits at the population level. This will put more pressure on Australian Public Health and maybe even the WHO.

    For the short term I don't see any changes being possible in Australia. Regardless of what happens with the Federal Inquiry it doesn't have the power to change legislation, only make recommendations. The Senate Inquiry into changing the Bill was premature in my opinion, but I'm not going to try to guess at the motivations for it. It also has some things that missed the mark like the 20mg/ml limit.

    I tend to push the human rights issue whenever I can because I do believe that denying Australians THR alternatives is unethical. The problem with this approach is that the AHRC might be a bit of a toothless tiger. They can't enforce anything, they can only influence the creation of legislation, by my understanding. It's also hard to see their angle on this in their current set of policies - they would have to include the idea that smokers are being discriminated against by denying them THR products. I'm not sure how that would fly because the society/culture still seems to consider smoking to be "curable" and a self inflicted circumstance. It could be a bit messy.

    That does leave us with the civil liberties pathway. Unfortunately, there the situation is even more confusing. CLA is Independent but also works in areas of law and legislation. There are also state civil liberties organisations, and it's possible all of those would need to be engaged as well as the CLA. There's also no clear cut policy already existing that vaping would fit into - They would need to be willing to open a brand new front amongst the many that they are already fighting on.

    As far as I'm aware neither the CLA nor the AHRC has been approached by any advocacy group at this time. It's hard to know what they would make of the situation.
    Last edited by fabricator4; 11-10-17 at 10:16 AM. Reason: grammar/context
    Chris: Tobacco free since 17:00 15th March 2013.

  8. #348
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    It is an interesting question - but I dont think it can really go under human rights unless you can successfully argue genocide under the right to life or that the right to social security has been breeched (nearly there but a little too early) also pretty shady when you consider that people on centrelink can be cut off for 8 weeks or more for minor infringement and noone says boo probably bc of sovereign social contracts

    Civil liberties are another matter - its more about individual and civil freedoms to live life how they see fit - The catch however (and it could be changed) is that say civil liberties in Australia when it comes to drugs, tobacco etc - well they have shoved it all under the medical model

    But I think there is a case for THR here and if a good enough case could be shown in which it shows the true picture of prohibition of harm reduction on disadvantaged communities and smokers (which wouldnt be hard) - THR could gain traction throughout social service and consumer groups- the legal stuff civil liberties lgroups legal stuff wouldnt hurt either (snowball effect)

    Anyways it was a just late night brain burp

    Gotta go for a while

    Thanks for the answer
    NNA AU and general vape advocacy in Australia summed up-
    There is nothing to see here- it has nothing to do with you or vapers - Its not your business...
    Secrecy for the greater good... Enemies are everywhere

    "If you see something ...Say say nothing...
    Then drink to forget ..."
    One of us... one of us...one of us....

  9. #349
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    Quote Originally Posted by rebelagainstthemachine View Post
    It is an interesting question - but I dont think it can really go under human rights unless you can successfully argue genocide under the right to life or that the right to social security has been breeched (nearly there but a little too early) also pretty shady when you consider that people on centrelink can be cut off for 8 weeks or more for minor infringement and noone says boo probably bc of sovereign social contracts
    I'm not sure I agree completely, though it's harder to see the human rights angle but... if lying to 14% of your population and denying them safer alternatives, thereby condemning them to early deaths and misery for them and their families, then I don't know what is. To put it into context, the death rate worldwide taken on average for this century (A Billion Lives, the WHO's own figures) is six TIMES the death rate in the concentration camps in Europe between the years 1940 to '45. If that isn't a human rights issue I don't know what is. It's unethical treatment of human beings, most of whom would probably welcome safer alternatives to smoking tobacco if only they were given a free choice. Ethical legislation would not be supporting the tobacco industry.


    ETA: ... and now I've probably invoked Godwin's law, haven't I? Do I get a free pass?
    Chris: Tobacco free since 17:00 15th March 2013.

  10. #350
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    Oh, and another Regulator Watch video, this time on the pushback on Canadian bill S-5


    Chris: Tobacco free since 17:00 15th March 2013.

 

 
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