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Thread: Federal Inquiry into the use of electronic cigarettes and personal vaperisers.

  1. #591
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    ok... the point...IS that researchers disagree... and those that wanted more will be disappointed... important to say .....

    1. Parliamentary Privilege does not extend to those admitting to criminal behavior ....

    2. That many experts in the medical thoracic/lung/ are not convinced by any research thus far..

    3. Those that propose vaping as '95% safer' need to think that if they personally recommended vaping to a younger person of diminished responsibility, how do YOU live with that responsibility... cos that is what you are asking of legislators...

    4. those who wanted to not/or commented about the release of important vaping information about temperature and dangerous emissions even at low wattage vapes... really need to think about WTF they are on about...

    5. that really.. nobody knows !




    or as emu says.. we are stuffed

    What is a cat's favourite colour? Purrrrrrrple !

    Ducky's quote of the Year is worth preserving "wouldn't know a classy lady if she walked right up and kicked em in the balls"

  2. #592
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    Not sure how old it actually is, but that video is sad... a few cheap laughs instead of doing any kind of proper research
    gert likes this.

  3. #593
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    whisp.. its from a comedy show.. remember laughter... sometimes its all ya can do


    edit with a sigh... so sigh...not many of you watch Charlie Pickering on the ABC .... channel 2... .... then lol.. oh well do as you do
    Last edited by 1ynne; 20-07-17 at 08:54 PM.

    What is a cat's favourite colour? Purrrrrrrple !

    Ducky's quote of the Year is worth preserving "wouldn't know a classy lady if she walked right up and kicked em in the balls"

  4. #594
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    Well looks like the UK or NZ...

    Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk
    Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master.



  5. #595
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    Hahaha.. haha.. ha... yeah

    Back to honest questions, say against all odds, nic was legalised in Aus in all capacities. Seeing as the Govnt. would be taxing it now, we wouldn't be able to import nic anymore? Or not at least without paying a massive premium?

    Obviously this is the short term as once local companies started to manufacture their own nic, competition would hopefully drive the price down. I just mention this as with smokes you can only bring 25 and an open pack into the country now.

  6. #596
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    Quote Originally Posted by rebelagainstthemachine View Post
    And still board members have trouble answering basic should be easy to answer questions ..like who they are and what they are asking for. go figure...
    PMSL Do you really expect an answer Reb?

    I have been looking for that answer as to who the heck they are since their inception. I do not think they know themselves the answer. Openness and transparency and above all honesty I respect. Silence and intrigue is a total waste of everyone's time. There are so many rumours floating around and personally I am getting bored with all the rumours. Do your own thing, get your nic from wherever you can, legal or otherwise, and vape on and be happy.

  7. #597
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    Some really good points here lynne-I particularly like points 1 and 3

    That being said Im not too sure vapers and snusers are particularly stuffed just yet

    Although I am not sure about the impact of the stories in this round - I dont think they hurt either

    See I think that there is hope in so far as vaping is a profitable political football- that Murdochs IPA is behind (despite the possible conflicting corporate interests they represent) and that vaping although controversial potentially could give the liberal party a progressive modern metro image away from the regressive one that they have had so far -

    Its like alot of other policies that we have introduced into australia for better or worse - All our friends (USA, UK etc) are doin it - -we should too!

    Policy makers are aware of the world stage and where we sit on it - Quite frankly Australia has fallen behind and there will be a push to change this even in smaller ways

    If this is the case - perhaps this is where the personal stories will shine and help sell the idea of vaping to others - even if it does come through in a limited capacity




    Quote Originally Posted by 1ynne View Post
    ok... the point...IS that researchers disagree... and those that wanted more will be disappointed... important to say .....

    1. Parliamentary Privilege does not extend to those admitting to criminal behavior ....

    2. That many experts in the medical thoracic/lung/ are not convinced by any research thus far..

    3. Those that propose vaping as '95% safer' need to think that if they personally recommended vaping to a younger person of diminished responsibility, how do YOU live with that responsibility... cos that is what you are asking of legislators...

    4. those who wanted to not/or commented about the release of important vaping information about temperature and dangerous emissions even at low wattage vapes... really need to think about WTF they are on about...

    5. that really.. nobody knows !




    or as emu says.. we are stuffed
    flyingfox12 likes this.
    NNA AU and general vape advocacy in Australia summed up-
    There is nothing to see here- it has nothing to do with you or vapers - Its not your business...
    Secrecy for the greater good... Enemies are everywhere

    "If you see something ...Say say nothing...
    Then drink to forget ..."
    One of us... one of us...one of us....

  8. #598
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1ynne View Post
    ok... the point...IS that researchers disagree... and those that wanted more will be disappointed... important to say .....
    Fortunately we are not trying to convince any researchers at this point, it's the house of reps that are looking at this. While the opinion of Australians about politicians is generally very low, in this case they seem to be approaching things with an open mind. We can't really expect more than that, and it's a lot more than we get from some researchers.

    1. Parliamentary Privilege does not extend to those admitting to criminal behavior ....
    Actually, article 9 of the bill of rights:
    That the freedom of speech and debates or proceedings in Parliament ought not to be impeached or questioned in any court or place out of Parliament.
    Which means that anything you say, including in a committee inquiry can not be used against you in a court of law. Of course I wouldn't enjoy that being tested. The prosecutor would have to be damn stupid, and the defense council would have to be damn smart. It's written that way in the constitution for a reason though.


    2. That many experts in the medical thoracic/lung/ are not convinced by any research thus far..
    Well they do appear to be stuck in 2009. "We just don't know" just doesn't equate to the large body of evidence to date. After ten years it would seem that burden of proof will very shortly be starting to fall on them. Basically: "put up or shut up".


    3. Those that propose vaping as '95% safer' need to think that if they personally recommended vaping to a younger person of diminished responsibility, how do YOU live with that responsibility... cos that is what you are asking of legislators...
    As opposed to say, continuing to smoke two packs a day? I actually do know a heavy smoker who is under the care of Queensland Mental Health. He won't even consider vaping because of the lies told to him, perpetuated by the health department and government policy. This, despite two heart scares that required hospitalisation in the last year. Based on what I've seen in my own family death is possible in the next couple of years, not more than about five years. So yes, I feel pretty comfortable about recommending vaping as a far safer alternative to anyone who smokes.

    4. those who wanted to not/or commented about the release of important vaping information about temperature and dangerous emissions even at low wattage vapes... really need to think about WTF they are on about...
    Sorry, I'm not sure that scans. It's probably me not reading it right because I'm not understanding the statment. We have known about the temperature issues for a long time, it's not new. Someone has actually quantified it but due to the difficulties of taking temperature readings from a coil, the absolute accuracy of those statements should not be taken as absolute. Thermocouples (the method used) were proposed for temperature control many years ago but it was found to be impractical because anything you do to the coil changes it's heating characteristics. Even the mass of a very small thermocouple puts the coil out of balance, meaning that you never read the true highest temperature. Even if we do use it as a guideline the temperature control used in most mods has far to many shortcomings to be able to guarantee an absolute temperature. It's still a fact that if it tastes bad then it probably (most certainly) is.

    5. that really.. nobody knows !
    That is the quintessential idea behind the precautionary approach to THR, yes. The thing is though, in the last ten years not even long term smokers have had any permanent harm from switching to vaping. The worst appears to be a reaction to PG, or possible increased reaction to nicotine (which is why some people find they have to cut it down, down to almost zero in some cases). In the same time frame 150,000 Australian smokers that continued to smoke have died.

    To give a similar type of example: When mandatory seat belt laws were introduced in Australia, no one really knew if it would significantly reduce the death toll. Some experts said it would - pointing to the number of crash victims that were thrown through the windscreen at the time of impact. Others said the proposed three point seat belt would itself be the cause of internal compression injuries and ultimately deaths. My father was actually one of the latter, and used to relate a story about how if he had not been thrown across the bench seat (no seat belts in those days) then he would have been decapitated in the crash. As it turns out both sides were right. The three point seat belts are not completely safe and do account for internal and spinal injuries, and some deaths. The exact figures can not be found - if you search for them you'll find that data does not appear to have been published. I suspect it's not part of the recording protocol for traffic accidents. What they do know though, is that you are at least half as likely to die in a serious car crash if you are wearing your seat belt.

    The problem with the precautionary approach is that there is just no comparison with the relative risks of vaping and smoking. One hundred and fifty thousand against zero known problems is far better than the seat belt statistics.


    video=youtube

    The problem with throwing that video on the end is that I really don't know how seriously to take what preceded it. Either you really do feel that way or... Well you can't be playing devils advocate... That's normally MY job
    Last edited by fabricator4; 20-07-17 at 11:17 PM.
    Cath Mort, AllyP, Wombats1 and 3 others like this.
    Chris: Tobacco free since 17:00 15th March 2013.

  9. #599
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    Well I had a quick fly through the doctors that submitted, most of the Professors, some of the ANTZ, the vaping advocates, vape manufacturers, tobacco manufacturers and the odd group of convenience stores (and the ARA) - which strangely included Newsagents and Lotteries sales.

    In conclusion:
    1. I was heartened by the number of GPs and Specialists who supported some sort of legalisation of vaping including nicotine. Based on their personal experience wrt smoking and wanting THR.
    2. Many of the Professors from various fields were supportive.
    3. The ANTZ spouted their well known position.
    4. The various Vape manufacturers and businesses were coherent and not TOO obvious about their desire to make money.
    5. The tobacco manufacturers are what they are - don't trust them anyway.
    6. Convenience stores - I'm sorry, but I just find them to be totally self serving, bleating, money hungry idiots who's only concern is their bottom line. Want legalisation in order to sell their overpriced products by under qualified sales people.

    Haven't had time to read too many personal submissions, will browse my way though them. I've also got to catch up on the State Govt entries. I did read SA Govt's, will be sending Jay an email asking if he could possibly find a staffer to read some of this and then go contemplate the quality of his govt's position.

    I don't feel disheartened. A quick scan of the numbers (excluding the "personals) has more in support than against. For these in support, the number of health folk exceed the number with vested interests.

    Evenly poised maybe?

  10. #600
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    Quote Originally Posted by FXVaper View Post
    Evenly poised maybe?
    I do think THR carried the day. The ANTZ and govt prohibitionist standpoint is looking more and more shaky: we blasted them out of the water because they are starting to sound like a cracked record. The work done in the UK by the RCP, public health, and now UK tobacco control is shining a light into the dark closets of ANTZ. I think that's why the professionals truly interested in THR are starting to make a lot more noise - the UK is giving them some heart.

    My concern is that the later submissions weren't read at the time of the first public hearing and that important points may not have been addressed.
    gert, AllyP, flyingfox12 and 2 others like this.
    Chris: Tobacco free since 17:00 15th March 2013.

 

 
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