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Thread: Federal Inquiry into the use of electronic cigarettes and personal vaperisers.

  1. #701
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pantoea View Post
    Has anybody signed up to the LD's campaign?
    I'm thinking about it.

    Link: Vaping
    I missed the last LDP monthly meeting in Brisbane, but I'll go along to the next one to get the latest.

    Personally I wish we would stop marketing e-cigs/vaping as smoking cessation devices/aids when it is clearly
    a smoking replacement.

    Calling vaping 'smoking cessation' places our beloved hobby squarely in the court of the health/industrial complex and
    will be a constant source of trouble for us.

    I didn't start vaping because I wanted to stop smoking, I started vaping because I didn't want to stop smoking, but had
    to as smoking was killing me. I loved smoking.

    If a magical cigarette existed that was tasty, did not produce smelly(for some people) smoke and had very little health impacts, I
    imagine we would still have 1950's era smoking rates today among the population.

    E-cigs are that magical cigarette.

    Pleasurable, affordable and not all that bad for you...the spice of life.
    DocM and Jemor53 like this.

  2. #702
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashley View Post
    I missed the last LDP monthly meeting in Brisbane, but I'll go along to the next one to get the latest.

    Personally I wish we would stop marketing e-cigs/vaping as smoking cessation devices/aids when it is clearly
    a smoking replacement.

    Calling vaping 'smoking cessation' places our beloved hobby squarely in the court of the health/industrial complex and
    will be a constant source of trouble for us.
    Well vape shops are banned from making smoking cessation claims. To do so is to make a medical claim (according to state health departments) and since vaping has never passed any tests for smoking cessation that would be illegal. Nor can you state that it's completely free of carcinogens, because that will get you in trouble with the ACCC.

    The fact remains though, that I and thousands of Australians gave up smoking by switching to vaping. I do not consider myself a smoker, and mark the day of my last cigarette 1613 days ago (13260 cigarettes). If that's not smoking cessation regardless of what health departments say... If I listened to them I'd still be smoking.

    I think the fact that vaping ex-smokers should make a big deal out of what we do. In many cases vaping has saved our lives, and it was the only thing that was able to. I think vape shops should be able to make cessation claims because it's the truth. To say anything else is lying to smokers.

    I didn't start vaping because I wanted to stop smoking, I started vaping because I didn't want to stop smoking, but had
    to as smoking was killing me. I loved smoking.
    Well we all had that best friend called the "the fag" that we couldn't put down. Having a family member suggest that would should "just give up" would be enough to put a strain on the relationship and actually increase the smoking. Just the thought of not smoking was enough to increase stress levels and demand another smoke. I think we forget just how insidious it was.

    If a magical cigarette existed that was tasty, did not produce smelly(for some people) smoke and had very little health impacts, I
    imagine we would still have 1950's era smoking rates today among the population.

    E-cigs are that magical cigarette.
    Things would have been very different if e-cigs had come along twenty five years earlier. At that time the battery technology was not good enough to make it practical because it would have required carting a hefty battery with you. 2007, we have the battery technology but ANTZ have done their work so well smoking and smokers are so badly stigmatised that anything that even looks like smoking is an easy target, no matter how much safer it is. At this point vaping will never become the "magic cigarette".
    gert, gtadmin, Cath Mort and 3 others like this.
    Chris: Tobacco free since 17:00 15th March 2013.

  3. #703
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    Quote Originally Posted by fabricator4 View Post
    I think you miss the point that the Libs are well and truly starting to change their stance on vaping. This awareness is happening in a climate of ANTZ anti vape in Australia, so the truth is slowing winning, but it is surprising how fast it's starting to snowball in only six months.

    Here's Lib senator James Patterson on 3AW. Yes he's showing his lack of knowledge quite a bit it does show they are starting to "get it".

    IMO, some minor mistakes but overall he put his message across quite well


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  4. #704
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    Yup, he's a good communicator, he didnt umm and ahh his way through it, came across very very well.

    More like him thanks

    Less Chimpy....
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  5. #705
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    fabricator4: The problem is (and we all know this) the conflation of smoking and vaping to the point where that conflation has been enshrined into law, at least in Queensland.

    Hence why the argument, when framed as 'smoking cessation', will always fail.

    A vaper is still 'smoking'.

    It is very difficult to advance any sort of freedom these days as the government and it's many statist supporters have such a tight grip on the language, and they manipulate
    that language so perfectly in the court of public opinion when they practice their sophistry.

    Plus, there is very little moral foundation to the law anymore which leads me to my thesis:

    Our struggle is of a philosophical nature ie your right to vape/property rights, not a pragmatic nature ie good public health policy.

    That's why I like the LDP, they use a few of the pragmatic buzzwords, but at their core they are pro-property rights.

    I hope this issue is a Red Pill for the many vapers who are seeing the deeper issue here.
    gert, DocM and Pantoea like this.

  6. #706
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashley View Post
    fabricator4: The problem is (and we all know this) the conflation of smoking and vaping to the point where that conflation has been enshrined into law, at least in Queensland.

    Hence why the argument, when framed as 'smoking cessation', will always fail.

    A vaper is still 'smoking'.

    It is very difficult to advance any sort of freedom these days as the government and it's many statist supporters have such a tight grip on the language, and they manipulate
    that language so perfectly in the court of public opinion when they practice their sophistry.

    Plus, there is very little moral foundation to the law anymore which leads me to my thesis:

    Our struggle is of a philosophical nature ie your right to vape/property rights, not a pragmatic nature ie good public health policy.

    That's why I like the LDP, they use a few of the pragmatic buzzwords, but at their core they are pro-property rights.

    I hope this issue is a Red Pill for the many vapers who are seeing the deeper issue here.
    I agree Ashley.
    Fact is that the people's rights and freedoms have been trampled all over the place in this fight It's the last thing anyone seems concerned about and no one ever mentions it.
    DocM and Jemor53 like this.

  7. #707
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    Quote Originally Posted by gert View Post
    I agree Ashley.
    Fact is that the people's rights and freedoms have been trampled all over the place in this fight It's the last thing anyone seems concerned about and no one ever mentions it.
    Yeah. I'm just expressing myself, vaper to vaper here, but it peeves me off that we even have to justify what we do.
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  8. #708
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    off topic but been doing some refresher reading on other subjects and found this interesting in terms of the comment "a vaper is still smoking' and just bouncing around an idea- its not well thought out but bear with me pls

    This is the narcanon definition of signs of substance abuse recovery



    • Health No drug or alcohol abuse, making decisions which promote physical and mental health
    • Home Having a stable and safe place to live
    • Purpose Engaging in meaningful activities on a daily basis and having the income and resources to actively participate in society
    • Community Having relationships that provide support, friendship, love and hope



    It got me thinking how smoking has become so demonized by ANTZ and the government that the NARCONON definition of quitting drugs is slowly becoming relevant to smoking as well

    In terms of health - well aside from the benefits of quitting smoking and taking up vaping or smokless tobacco - Also like drug abusers its not unknown for doctors to refuse to see patients because they smoke- In the private sphere health insurance premiums will go up for smokers, many smokers will refuse to go see doctors cause they like many doctors will put everything that goes wrong with the smoker down to smoking - there are probably more examples here

    Stable home - Well some peoples rental housing is at risk because of smoking - thanks to anti smoking laws and the cost of smoking so housing for many smokers can become unstable


    Purpose and having income to have income and resources and finances to actively actively participate in the community - Well health department/ govt income management, huge taxes on cigarettes are having big impacts on how much some smokers will particiapte in the community - Also add to this smoking bans in so many public areas - Smokers are being more and more cut out of the social and community world - People have also been turned down for jobs because they smoke



    Community - smokers are often told how disgusting etc they are and a blight on society - no allowances are made for smokers - many forced to go to the illegal tobacco trade


    Looking at things this way it seems to me that thanks to ANTZ and quuit or die government policy - we now have a situation where the concept of just quitting smoking and abstinence is a bit more complicated than we are told and vaping/ smokelss tobacco/ harm reduction is contrary to the standard hard line quit or die that ANTZ has been spouting for years

    The actions of ANTZ and outdated quit or die policies - have not only made vaping/ snus/ other harm reduction relevant - but make it imperative that smoking harm reduction be allowed -

    If we accept a drug user is always a drug user - and for a large percentage we dont know why some will become addicted to drugs while others wont - then the same must be said about smoking


    Perhaps this is why the figure 95% safer than smoking is important- its because if 15- 20% of the population is still smoking cigarettes and being demonized and cornered into financial hardship and a 48% chance of smoking related death - - that means vaping could potentially drop these figures way down to never before seen levels

    Perhaps it could in some ways be said that vaping is still smoking - but if hard core smokers unable to quit smoking were given a choice between a 48% ?chance of dying for their habit or a 95% chance of surviving without the shame and guilt - the responsible choice would always be the latter wouldnt it?


    Hoping this made sense - still formulating in my head it as I go ...
    gtadmin, Cath Mort, DocM and 2 others like this.
    NNA AU and general vape advocacy in Australia summed up-
    There is nothing to see here- it has nothing to do with you or vapers - Its not your business...
    Secrecy for the greater good... Enemies are everywhere

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  9. #709
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    Rebel: The government has placed virtually every known hurdle and impediment in the way
    of the smoker so that their habit has become debilitating and affects their ability to
    function normally in society.

    Basically the government has set smokers up to look like, and become problem addicts.

    They do this by way of force.

    Examples:

    "Look at that tobacco addict, spending the grocery money on smokes".

    -True, but the government is responsible for the insane tobacco tax that nets $11.5 billion/annum. In a free market, cigarettes would be dirt cheap.

    "Look at those tobacco addicts, huddled in that dingy corner out the back of the beer garden, just behind the waste bins".

    -True, but the government mandates that smokers must be confined to designated smoking areas. In a free market you could smoke in many, if not most private establishments.

    "Look at that smoker, he doesn't even know what manner of chemicals he is smoking".

    -True, but the government won't let the smoker differentiate between a cheap reconstituted smoke and an organic
    American Spirit smoke. In a free market, Big Tobacco would cater to the health conscience smoker as well as the Holiday 20s crowd.

    etc
    Last edited by Ashley; 13-08-17 at 07:48 PM.

  10. #710
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashley View Post
    Hence why the argument, when framed as 'smoking cessation', will always fail.

    A vaper is still 'smoking'.
    No, I'm definitely not smoking.

    When I was smoking, which I did for 35 years, I was heading for emphysema and heart disease. The fact that I was so close to getting one or both of those is the reason I'm here. I am no longer worried about dying the same death as my father. He died when he was only three years older than I am now. I think I managed to dodge that bullet. Cancer rates drop by half about every seven years you are not smoking, so maybe I'll also manage to dodge the bullet that claimed grandparents, uncles, and friends. Of the male members of my family the only survivors appear to be me and my brother who gave up off his own bat years before I did.

    What I do, is continue to use nicotine. I also inhale propylene glycol and vegetable glycerin, both of which I'd be exposed to daily in any case. People who frequent night clubs and theaters and especially those who work in them have been exposed to large amounts of these for years. I'm pretty confident the risks are quite low but I tend not to use anything much that has dual coils. None of this takes into account all the other health benefits we enjoy when we (get ready for it) give up smoking.

    Trust me, nicotine use and inhaling theatrical fog is definitely NOT smoking. I think we should resist any suggestion that what we do is smoking quite vigorously. That's what ANTZ want to classify vaping as, so that they can continue to vilify us and what we do, and erode our rights even though there is absolutely no proof of harm to anyone else or even the vaper themselves.

    I refuse to let ANTZ or anyone else put me in that 'smoking' box because they then have an excuse to try and stop me from saving my own life and the lives of smokers who ask for help. Calling it 'smoking' invites the precautionary approach which just leads to many people continue to really and actually smoke, and that doesn't make any sense at all.

    I vape so I don't have to smoke.
    Cath Mort and Pantoea like this.
    Chris: Tobacco free since 17:00 15th March 2013.

 

 
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