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Thread: Logical fallacy and bad science drinking game courtesy of the TGA

  1. #1
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    Logical fallacy and bad science drinking game courtesy of the TGA

    Below is the latest "official" correspondence from our wonderful Government (or more specifically the TGA). There are so many flaws in this it's not funny. See how many you can find

    What really gets me though is the end: "We cannot provide you with further advice regarding this matter at this time."

    In other words, go away.

    ---

    Dear S--- Nolan

    Thank-you for your enquiry.

    Your enquiry has been forwarded to the TGA as the Scheduling Secretariat does not administer the SAS or Personal Importation scheme. In answer to your questions I can provide the following information.

    a) The interim decision that you are referring to is the Scheduling Delegate’s consideration of exempting nicotine in preparations for human therapeutic use to include oromusocal use when used as an aid in withdrawal from tobacco smoking. This was based on the TGA approved inhalation cartridge system. This decision has now been made final. The reasons for the final decisions can be found at the following URL - Reasons for scheduling delegates' final decisions, September 2011

    You have stated "Now that the interim decision has come down that electronic cigarettes with nicotine would be considered Schedule 4 when used as an aid to the withdrawal of tobacco smoking"

    This is not correct and it is not the decision that has been made. Despite your opinion and the opinion of the doctors you have referenced the TGA has not received a submission of evidence to indicate that the primary absorbption site for E-cigarettes is not the lungs.

    b) It is the position of the Therapeutic Goods Administration that e-cigarettes are not primarily absorbed through the oromucosa but via the lungs. Should the manufacturer of the company wish to have their product fall into this exemption they are able to lodge data regarding this difference in opinion.

    c) E-cigarettes are not considered to be a Therapeutic Good and therefore are not able to be provided under the Special Access Scheme, nor are they able to be provided via the Personal Importation Scheme

    I note that I have previously provided advice to you regarding this matter. The Australian Government is, and remains concerned about the use of electronic cigarettes in Australia, and the retail sale of electronic cigarettes containing nicotine is illegal. Unlike Nicotine Replacement Therapy (NRT) products, which have been approved by the Therapeutic Goods Administration for medically-supervised use to quit smoking, the quality and safety of electronic cigarettes is not known. In addition they are not provided in combination with a 'quit smoking' program, such as the assessed nicotine replacement therapies currently on the market.

    This information is still the current position within Australia. We cannot provide you with further advice regarding this matter at this time.

    I hope this information is of assistance.

    Kind regards

    Hana de Gooyer Senior Pharmacist Experimental Product Section Therapeutic Goods Administration Ph: 02 6232 8101 Fax: 02 6232 8112

  2. #2
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    You have stated "Now that the interim decision has come down that electronic cigarettes with nicotine would be considered Schedule 4 when used as an aid to the withdrawal of tobacco smoking"

    This is not correct and it is not the decision that has been made
    .

    Really? Then could you please explain this then:

    "Members clarified that e-cigarettes should be captured by Schedule 4 when for human therapeutic use or by Schedule 7 if for non-therapeutic use." - Page 81-82

  3. #3
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    Despite your opinion and the opinion of the doctors you have referenced the TGA has not received a submission of evidence to indicate that the primary absorbption site for E-cigarettes is not the lungs.

    An absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Just because you say it is so doesn't change the actual science. Now to be safe it is NOT known yet exactly where the majority of nicotine is absorbed, but consider the following from the linked decision document:

    Although the strips presented a new delivery system for nicotine, the route of administration (buccal) was the same as for currently registered nicotine chewing gums, lozenges, sublingual tablets and inhalers. - Page 74

    You can replace "strips" with e-cigs, and "buccal" with "oramucaso" and the statement both be still correct and fall within the decisions made. Or am I missing something?

    Claimed that nicotine is highly soluble in water and due to the absence of carbon particles and droplets nicotine from the inhaler is unable to be carried to the lungs unlike nicotine delivered in cigarettes. Additionally, cigarette smoke is acidic (pH around 5.5), thus nicotine is ionized and little absorption occurs through the oral mucosa. Once the smoke from a cigarette reaches the small airways and alveoli it is buffered to a higher pH resulting in a greater absorption of the nicotine. - Page 76

    There are no carbon particles and droplets with vaping either. E-cig vapor is also not acidic as the ideal pH for our PG/VG is around 8-8.5. Flavorings can alter this, but eJuice should always be 7 or above for best results. This again suggests that e-cigs are most effective when used like a cigar and not like a cigarette - thus delivery to the mouth and throat (does this explain "throat hit") rather than the lungs.

    If the TGA require evidence to make a decision I would ask what the evidence of delivery to the lungs is? To be knowledge no such evidence yet exists.

  4. #4
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    c) E-cigarettes are not considered to be a Therapeutic Good and therefore are not able to be provided under the Special Access Scheme, nor are they able to be provided via the Personal Importation Scheme

    This gives us the obvious question: How is an item consider to be a Therapeutic Good?

    It's cant be based on registeration as the Special Access Scheme and therefore the Personal Importaion Scheme exist for the soul purpose of access to unapproved Therapeutic Goods.

    Electronic cigarettes with nicotine are available from chemists in New Zealand and the nicotine within is controlled by MedSafe (New Zealand's TGA) - Categorisation of Electronic Cigarettes

    So New Zealand clearly considers them a Therapuetic Good, why is Australia different?

  5. #5
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    cause we said so.
    despite evidence to the contrary.
    any degrees these bozos have shoud be invalidated. scientific they are not..
    In order of useful: Provari V2 and V1, vamo, eGo twist, Katana v3, Hex, Orion v2, LavaTube, eGo x 6, VMAX, 510N, Tick V2, Tick V1, noEgo 18650, noEgo 14650 , Indulgence x 2, 905 6v mod, KR808D



  6. #6
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    Remember this is a drinking game...

    I note that I have previously provided advice to you regarding this matter (Appeal to Authority). The Australian Government is, and remains concerned about the use of electronic cigarettes in Australia (Personal Incredulity and Appeal to Emotion), and the retail sale of electronic cigarettes containing nicotine is illegal (Compessssition and Divvvision and Ambaagooity).

    Unlike Nicotine Replacement Therapy (NRT) products, which have been approved by the Therapeutic Goods Administration (Annother Appeal to Auffority) for medically-supervised use to quit smoking (Fallafy Fallafy, medidikally soopavised my asss) , the quality and safety of electronic cigarettes is not known (Beerdum of Poof! In sum cumtrees er is regoolatshion!). In addition they are not provided in combination with a 'quit smoking' program (dad a wooded quesshion), such as the assessed nicotine replacement therapies currently on the market. (Genetic!) *passes out*

    * wakes up an hour or so later *

    (Ughhh, my head. Where wassh I?)


    This information is still the current position within Australia (Ummm, bwhack or why-t). We cannot provide you with further advice regarding this matter at this time (Ack, thinly veiled adhom, adha, adhoooomeneeem atttargh. Dat il do).

    * passes out again *


    Thou shalt not commit logical fallacies

  7. #7
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    oh,
    thass juss bullshish then . them fugging shinetists arr poo hedds
    zainwolf likes this.
    In order of useful: Provari V2 and V1, vamo, eGo twist, Katana v3, Hex, Orion v2, LavaTube, eGo x 6, VMAX, 510N, Tick V2, Tick V1, noEgo 18650, noEgo 14650 , Indulgence x 2, 905 6v mod, KR808D



 

 

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