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Thread: But You're still Addicted !!!!!!!

  1. #1
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    But You're still Addicted !!!!!!!

    Carl V Phillips attended VaperCon recently, and wrote an essay on the lies spouted by those who are seeking to ban electronic cigarettes.

    One particular lie was concerning the idea of addiction.

    This was my response ;

    “Lie: They may have quit smoking, but they are still addicted.”

    This particular lie is probably at the heart of anti-THR, and will always be the last resort for anti-THR activists. It is their last resport because of the moral nature of the argument.

    Firstly, have there been any comprehensive studies that have examined non-tobacco smoke nicotine addiction? Most extremely addictive drugs often cause an increase in cravings – the more you use it, the more you need it. From a personal experience, my ejuice nicotine concentration, as well as my ejuice daily volume usuage has remained fairly constant over the past 12 months (which also accounts to me knowing my exact daily nicotine intake to the milligram). Many others I have talked to on vaping related forums have also experienced a constant daily nicotine intake. This leads me to believe that there may be more components in tobacco smoke that contribute to cigarette addiction. I think nicotine may very well be less addictive than currently thought.

    I believe it’s due to nicotine’s effect on the human body. Excessive intake of nicotine is not pleasurable. You become fatigued, your heart pumps faster, and you begin to cold sweat. Unlike, for example alcohol, the negative physical effects of excessive nicotine intake override the pleasurable or psychological effects of excessive use. Furthermore, an excessive amount of nicotine in the actual vapor causes an overwhleming throat hit, which simply makes the activity of inhaling large amounts unpleasurable to begin with. Nicotine is also a very bitter tasting substance. The taste of non-atomised electronic cigarette liquid is very unappealing, even to those who vape it, so the claim that the liquids are designed to attract children is a moot point. Liquids should be kept away from children like most other household chemicals, and most vendor websites don’t even allow access to people under 18 yrs old.

    Putting aside the fallcies involving actual nicotine intake, those who claim that the addicitve properties ‘alone’ of a substance are justified grounds to ban it are merely imposing their own morality onto others. I find it ironic that these anti-nicotine activists such as Simon Chapman, sit at their computers drinking a cups of coffee whilst typing in propaganda against electroninc cigarette use. That scene deserves to be a cartoon in the NY Post.

    Not all addictions are harmful, destructive, unmanageable, or inherently bad or immoral. See : http://forums.aussievapers.com/polit...lth-issue.html

    Your thoughts?
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  2. #2
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    I disagree on the whole point that the more you take a drug, the more you need of it.
    Sure, at the start you do but you eventually get to a point where more doesn't have any greater effect, etc.. So you simply take the same amount, everyday, for maintenance and to keep the withdrawals, etc.. at bay.
    Even with heroin, you get to a point where you just take the same amount everyday to feel "normal".
    Cocaine shows a rapid tolerance at the beginning of ones use and then comes to a screeching halt once the user is hitting some high doses on a regular basis.

    It's exactly the same as cigarettes. People start off at one or two every so often, then they get to a point where they're a pack a day smoker. From there, the amount they smoke increases, ever so slightly, over the span of a fair few years.
    It's much the same with vaping but unfortunately, vaping hasn't been around long enough to gauge this increase in use.
    When vaping has been around for 20+ years, I'm sure you would find the incremental use to be on par with smoking.

    (*Susceptible to sloppy moderation)

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    What brings about people overdosing on Heroin and Cocaine and dying? I thought that was the whole idea of Chasing the Dragon, who eventually kills you.

    For myself personally, cigarettes were going up and up. It was the main reason I had to look for a way out. I had eventually got to smoking more than a packet a day. 27 cigs was my last count.

    I'm sure it's different for everyone else. I'm definitely not going to use anecdotal personal experience as evidence, but the whole Dragon Chase is over for myself. That's as much as a I can be certain of for now.

    I do think it warrants investigation though.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by mavinry4 View Post
    What brings about people overdosing on Heroin and Cocaine and dying? I thought that was the whole idea of Chasing the Dragon, who eventually kills you.
    Its the fact the substances have only the purity that a supplier releases it at .... a herion or cocaine user , at the zenith of their habit , reaches a point not far off a comatose dose . In the case of heroin this induces a relaxed state , but the next step on from this relaxed state is passing out and respiratory reduction .
    the reverse is true for Cocaine ... it speeds the heartrate up and gives the illusion of energy ... the tipping point after that is an increased heartrate that can lead to cardiac failure .
    When either has reached a stasis in the amount they need to feel "normal", they are far closer to either of those tipping points than the general population would ever get ... so if a supplier gets his maths a little wrong and accidentally ends up with a mix that has say120% of the normal mix sold , people start dropping off !
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  5. #5
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    Hmm...ok

    Would the premise that I wrote in my original post still hold weight in that, the physical effects of excessive nicotine intake overides the pleasurable effects of excessive use?

    If so, then comparing nicotine to heroin and cocaine may still be valid in debate.

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    ..................
    Last edited by RKDAU; 14-10-12 at 07:00 PM. Reason: got upset on a personal level over the word addiciton. so deleted my post to spare the convo
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by RKDAU View Post
    ..................
    People want to ban nicotine because it's addictive.

    They say that we ban things like cocaine and heroin because it's addictive, why not nicotine?

    And that's what we're refuting, in detail - Mechanisms of addiction, substance tolerance, overdosing etc etc.

    We know nicotine use is not bad, but it's best to be able to clearly explain why. That's the point of the discussion.

  8. #8
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    All things are relative ... originally cocaine and heroin were presented in forms in which it was hard to OD from casual use and indeed considered safe enough to use on a regular basis ( such as our vaping ) , however as higher forms of purity were introduced , the risk of toxicity became greater . It is a little bit like us with our nicotine ... originally you could only get it from tobacco smoking or snuff , ( excluding the trace amounts in regular foodstuffs of course ) neither of which gave you much of a chance of overdose by normal means .
    But now we all KNOW handling 1000mg/l nicotine bases is not a good thing , because it is now COMPLETELY possible to overdose on nicotine in the home .
    I am used to handling all sorts of dangerous chemicals , so do not fear handling it at all , but many people should ... I actually agree that a form of regulation should be in place for concentrations such as these , handling them will kill you as surely as handling carelessly pure cocaine or heroin .
    It is not the ADDICTION that kills you , just the poor handling or use of a CONCENTRATED base .

    If however as nicotine users , we only expose ourselves to the concentrations that are safe(?) to be inhaled , if we over do our exposre to nicotine at those levels , the body has a chance of self-regulating ( headaches, queasyness, lack of cravings) .

    We are also lucky in that the LD50 for nicotine is usually higher in ml than most of our devices hold and as such , even if you fill a tank with 100% nic it would be released at a rate that would make you sick rather quickly , but not kill you .... however if you want to , ingesting orally WILL , as will transdermal migration ( thru skin ) contact if the lethal amount is presented .


    The Addictive craving mechanism is pretty much the same in ANY drug of dependancy , its only the risk of redressing that craving that seperates the classes
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  9. #9
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    i will try to say this without throwing all of my raw emotion into it
    I don't have much to say but
    After finding my nephew dead from heroin on boxing day and watching his struggle with heroin for 10 years, and the violence he ended up bestowing on us because of his 'addiction'. After watching what his 5 babies had to go thru with a heroin addicted dad - after watching all of this for so long - i can not see how heroin is even compared to nicotine.

    Nicotine is the same level to me as caffeine - they are both annoying addictions that i get a headache and grumpy if i go without or i have too much.
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  10. #10
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    RKDAU I can assure you that my intention in this thread is not to bring up painful memories for anyone nor to compare addictions , but rather disseminate the mechanisms of the causal roots of addiction , NOT the outcomes of each addiction .

    ANY addiction is a bad thing in the purest sense , I can assure you I for one am not belittling ANYONE intentionally , nor am I supporting ANY addiction as being "Better/worse" than any other .

    I do agree heroin and cocaine ruin many lives , and often it is those who are around the individual , or left behind that have to deal with the results
    .
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