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Thread: DA and AP testing.

  1. #1
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    DA and AP testing.

    Hi Juicers,

    Bit of a wall of text here so bear with me.

    When soma5eeker announced that he would be doing his tests for the community we caught on quite late. We had a lot to think about; who is this guy? Why won’t he share his name and qualifications publicly? Can he actually do this type of work accurately? The community jumped in excitement so quickly and without question that we had to ask ourselves, is he just a troll looking for free juice..?
    Regardless, after a few emails back and forth we decided to give him the benefit of the doubt. We still didn’t have all the info we wanted which, when we look at it from a business perspective, is completely nuts. Sending someone with all those unknowns our flavours, it could ruin us if his data is not spot on. Regardless, we want to know what is in our flavours and we know you do to so if we can at least get a start on testing, this is an opportunity that can’t be missed.

    I’d also like to break the flow here to say that I can understand why soma5eeker isn’t putting his name against this. Not only because he hasn’t done this exact testing before but also the pitchforking that went on. And I’m not saying that what came out of this isn’t less than expected, because it was. But we do have to understand his position. I have to admit, it’s one of the things that I really like about this place, the passion. We were lied to for years and now we’re in a better position than ever to get exactly what we want. Don’t ever lose it.

    Anyway, back to it - Given that we have well over 400 flavours and we can only send ~25 we had to have a good think about which flavours we were going to send. We took the obvious choice, we’d send flavours in what is believed to be the high risk categories and a couple of low risk flavours for comparison. We also decided that TPA / TFA didn’t need much clarity as they have been unbelievably awesome in their transparency (for those that don’t know this, you can find their flavour ingredient listings here: Perfumer's Apprentice).

    We went with the list below. soma5eeker was extremely professional, he kept in constant contact and even took additional time out to get the results as quickly as possible. He then sent us the results. They are:

    JF Gourmet Black Currant Super Concentrate – Nothing detected
    JF Gourmet Coffee Mocha Super Concentrate - AP @ 0.00008 (under daily exposure limit for 6 mL daily consumption)
    JF Gourmet Klondike Super Concentrate – Nothing detected
    JF Gourmet Pineapple Super Concentrate – Nothing detected
    JF Gourmet Yellow Peach Super Concentrate – Nothing detected
    JF Gourmet Toasted Almond Super Concentrate – Nothing detected (interesting we were under the belief that this did contain DA and have a warning for it on our site)
    Capella Vanilla Custard Concentrate AP @ 0.616 (over daily exposure limit for 6 mL daily consumption)
    Capella Vanilla Custard v2 Concentrate– Nothing detected
    TPA / TFA Dulce de Leche Concentrate AP @ 0.00132 (under daily exposure limit for 6 mL daily consumption)
    TPA / TFA Dairy / Milk Concentrate AP @ 0.00236 (under daily exposure limit for 6 mL daily consumption)
    Flavor West Caramel (Salted) Concentrate – Nothing detected
    JF Espresso Super Concentrate DA @ 0.00101 (under daily exposure limit for 6 mL daily consumption)
    JF Peach Super Concentrate – Nothing detected
    JF Caramel Mocha Super Concentrate DA @ 0.00132 (under daily exposure limit for 6 mL daily consumption)
    JF Black Fire Super Concentrate DA @ 0.168 (over daily exposure limit for 6 mL daily consumption)
    JF Black and Mild Super Concentrate DA @ < 0.001 (under daily exposure limit for 6 mL daily consumption)
    JF Cheesecake Super Concentrate DA @ < 0.001 (under daily exposure limit for 6 mL daily consumption)
    JF Strawberry Super Concentrate – Nothing detected
    JF Caramel Super Concentrate DA @ 0.000219 (under daily exposure limit for 6 mL daily consumption)
    JF Banana Cream Pie Super Concentrate – DA @ 0.000413 (under daily exposure limit for 6 mL daily consumption)
    JF Caramel Cream Puff Super Concentrate DA @ 0.00059 (under daily exposure limit for 6 mL daily consumption)
    JF Magnum Ice Cream Super Concentrate DA @ 0.00132 (under daily exposure limit for 6 mL daily consumption)
    JF Watermelon Super Concentrate – Nothing detected
    JF RY4 Super Concentrate – Nothing detected
    JF Blue Cola Super Concentrate – Nothing detected
    JF Green Apple Super Concentrate – Nothing detected

    What does this mean? And what is the daily exposure limit? Well quoting soma5eeker:
    “As for your samples, 13 of 26 showed no presence of DA or AP. This means that, once diluted at the recommended rate, these liquids are known to contain less than 0.0002 mg/mL of these compounds (0.00002 %). Based on the research completed last year by Farsalinos et al. (and the associated safe exposure limits determined by the NIOSH), if a user is to consume 3 mL of vaping liquid per day these liquids should have concentrations of less than 0.0217 mg/mL DA and 0.0457 mg/mL AP, in order to consume less than the daily recommended limit of these compounds (65 g DA and 137 g AP, respectively). If a user were to consume 6 mL per day these concentrations must be reduced to 0.0108 and 0.0228 mg/mL, respectively.”

    soma5eeker was the first person to admit that he wouldn’t be putting his name against the results and given that, how can we? The information will only allow us to form an opinion. Saying that, it’s given us a clear path that we need to know more. And we will be completely transparent. We already have a few samples waiting in a list to be tested in a (very expensive) accredited lab and we’re hoping to find a way to do more. These flavours cross over with those that soma5eeker has tested so we will also get a good idea on how accurate his findings were. I do plan to share the results with both him and all of you. If anyone out there has any contacts for (or knows of any) well priced labs, we’d love to know about it and we’d be more than happy to sort out a finder’s fee. We have also been in talks with our manufacturer and at this point we believe any flavour that registered DA has come from Acetoin in the mix. We’re continuing to work with them on this.

    We are vapers and our commitment to you is that we will be as transparent as possible. We (almost) all started vaping to get away from the stinkies and whilst personally I’m not overly concerned by small amounts of DA or AP, it doesn’t mean that they aren’t a concern. Until we can get real more long term studies and studies done that aren’t sponsored by biased parties we just won’t know. I think every vaper needs to think about what they are comfortable with on a personal level.

    I’d also like to mention that I had made a deal with soma5eeker that he not release our data until we had our lab results back but given that we had some positives and we aren’t expecting the results from the lab for at least a few more weeks we’ve since decided to publish his results and then release the lab results to confirm or otherwise his findings.

    Thank you for your work, soma5eeker. At the very least you’ve managed to stir the pot and raise additional awareness. Let’s all work toward the same goal, trying to keep this industry as healthy and transparent as possible!

    A last note, from soma5eeker's findings it would seem that fruits are the lowest risk at this point and for those that want to stay as far clear from DA and AP as possible it’s likely the best place to be looking. We are also constantly adding new DA and AP free remakes of flavours from our manufacturers and we’ve got a bunch more that will be available in the next week or 2.
    Last edited by Tom@JuiceFactory; 23-04-15 at 06:38 PM. Reason: Further clarified daily exposure limits. *EDIT 2* - Updated TPA / TFA Dairy / Milk to under.
    Noe, gtadmin, CMB and 40 others like this.

  2. #2
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    I commend you Tom on your transparency.


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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by gtadmin View Post
    I commend you Tom on your transparency.
    You're welcome...
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  4. #4
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    Well done Tom
    Tom@JuiceFactory likes this.

  5. #5
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    Great job, it will give vapers confidence that we do have ethical vendors, looking out for their customers.

  6. #6
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    Were these 25 flavours part of the original 85 tested or was this another test?

  7. #7
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    Thanks for the support and kind words.

    Quote Originally Posted by supersports600 View Post
    Were these 25 flavours part of the original 85 tested or was this another test?
    As I understand it these were part of the 85 flavours originally tested but soma5eeker will be able to confirm.
    supersports600 likes this.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom@JuiceFactory View Post
    These flavours cross over with those that soma5eeker has tested so we will also get a good idea on how accurate his findings were.
    Thanks Tom,

    Regarding the ones you have waiting to be tested at an accredited lab that cross over -

    Were each of those samples taken from the same homogenous containers or stock that was sent to Soma?

    Sorry if it sounds silly but I don't know how they get prepared / packaged.

    If you use different 'batches', we should still get the same general drift with results, but as GC is highly sensitive, even the smallest variance in the mix can make a big difference in how the result looks, so not really a way of cross checking accuracy of Soma's results.

    Just something to think about anyway.

    Thank you Tom ans Soma for sharing these results

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by supersports600 View Post
    Were these 25 flavours part of the original 85 tested or was this another test?
    These 26 flavours were part of the 85 tested.
    supersports600 likes this.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by supersports600 View Post
    Thanks Tom,

    Regarding the ones you have waiting to be tested at an accredited lab that cross over -

    Were each of those samples taken from the same homogenous containers or stock that was sent to Soma?

    Sorry if it sounds silly but I don't know how they get prepared / packaged.

    If you use different 'batches', we should still get the same general drift with results, but as GC is highly sensitive, even the smallest variance in the mix can make a big difference in how the result looks, so not really a way of cross checking accuracy of Soma's results.

    Just something to think about anyway.

    Thank you Tom ans Soma for sharing these results
    That's a very good point you raise. Whilst it is somewhat likely that they are from the same batch it's not something that I can guarantee 100%.
    supersports600 likes this.

 

 
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