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Thread: A simple wattage chart showing the relationship between voltage and resistance

  1. #21
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    Thanks SS600!

    Is there any chance you'd have the opportunity to do a primer on batteries? Myself and probably a lot of the members here would probably do well to understand batteries and their operation. Particularly as mech mods are making a big comeback. Topics on things like safe handling, charging and C ratings would be really handy.
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  2. #22
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    Luntingsir,

    Do you mind if I take some of your info/graph and use this in the AussieVapers Guide?

  3. #23
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    If you think it'd be useful, of course.
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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by luntingsir View Post
    Thanks SS600!

    Is there any chance you'd have the opportunity to do a primer on batteries? Myself and probably a lot of the members here would probably do well to understand batteries and their operation. Particularly as mech mods are making a big comeback. Topics on things like safe handling, charging and C ratings would be really handy.
    I can but my computer time is very limited, usually late at nigh (and sometimes after a few scotched )

    So I could take a while to respond. There are some other members here with good battery knowledge, they can answer if I'm too slow.

    To start C rate,

    Industry standard or just default values for lithium ion batts when not provided extra info are

    Cobalt types standard Charge 0.5C , max discharge 2C, LiMn (pure IMR) is higher (continuous charge and discharge we are talking here) , push a little further for intermittent currents.

    To rate them and compare one to the other, usually 0.5C charge to 50mA termination, then 0.5C discharge (or is it 1C discharge, I have a mental block, I think it's 1C) , (constant current discharge not resistance as with some consumer batteries), and used to be always at 20Deg C. Using this method, this is supposed to be the standard way to rate mAh from one model to another.

    We are getting more info with specific batteries these days though, eg, 'Sanyos' (now Pana's) are recommended at 0.7C charge
    The Pana NCR's were at 0.3C charge but now they are saying 0.5C charge, others 0.8C, then some are giving fast charge values too. I'll charge at 1C or more if in a hurry but not ideal.

    Getting a bit harder to compare as some brands do the tests at 20DegC and some at 25 now. Plus different termination charge Amps used now but still ok to compare for our purposes.

    All these are recommended values for optimal efficiency / lifespan etc. and are for quality manufactured mainstream big brands eg LG, Samsung, Panas, Sony, 'Sanyo' etc. small brands or unknown brands are anything goes.

    Lots of new models coming out lately, are they are starting to specify their own conditions etc.

    This is where C = the capacity in amp hours, so for a 2600mAh battery, the C value is 2.6 amps
    luntingsir likes this.
    Shop at Supersports600 eBay Store for all your Battery and Nicotine testing needs

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by luntingsir View Post
    likeÖ likeÖ like, sucking a golf ball through a hose. I knew a girl who could do that.
    I think I went out with her twin, she could suck the chrome off a tow ball.

    OK, OK, back on topic.

  6. #26
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    This section of the Complex View has been a long time coming as I tried to come at it from a few different angles. Itís by no means perfect. Again, itís not something someone new to vaping needs to absolutely know, but hopefully it will give you an insight into why some things work, why they donít, and why some people prefer some configurations over others.

    Once again, this is pretty much a brain dump, so I apologies if Iíve made any over-generalisations, omissions or mistakes. Newer members, feel free to chime in with questions. More experienced members, feel free to add your views.

    The complex view (continued from here)

    The wick
    Wicks in my opinion are a bit of a black art due to the variables at play. There are no hard or fast rules, so unlike the other sections I can only really tell you how they work, but not necessarily what will work best for you.

    As mentioned before the wick has two purposes, feeding the juice from the reservoir, and storing it ready to be vaporised. In doing so it must also have a number of characteristics. Firstly, it must be able to provide that juice at a rate that will keep up with the users vaping habits. Secondly, the section near the coil must be heat resistant. Thirdly, the section in contact with the coil must be nonconductive (or be made nonconductive). Fourthly, it must impart as little flavour as possible.


    Letís talk about a few different wick types.

    Silica
    Silica wicks are probably the most common type of wick available. Used in just about every type of clearo, they are good because their fine structure allows juice to be relatively efficiently sucked up via capillary action, and they are inert so they impart very little flavour, and donít react with juice, or conduct electricity. They are somewhat flexible so they can be arranged in multiple types of configurations. Importantly they also do not burn, meaning that they are somewhat forgiving when it comes to dry hits.

    Silica comes in two main configurations, twisted and woven (also known commercially as Ekowool).

    The thickness of the silica used will play a large part in the wickís ability to hold a reserve of juice in close proximity to the coil. The larger the diameter of silica used, or doubled or tripled over, the more juice it will hold. However there is a point where the silica is holding so much juice that it will either cause leakages, or create far too much thermal inertia for the coil to readily overcome. Think of the difference between trying to heat a pot full of water versus a few drops. Too thin a silica, the faster the response, but you risk running out of juice which will cause the coils to overheat and get the dreaded ďdry hitĒ.

    Cotton, hemp and bamboo wicks are similar to silica wicks but they are made of natural fibre. Some say that they have cleaner tastes than silica. Their main downside is that if fired dry, they will burn, permanently ruining the wick, whereas silica will not.

    Stainless steel mesh
    Stainless steel mesh has become a very popular type of wicking material for genesis-type rebuildable atomisers. The fine mesh structure is very effective at drawing liquid even vertically, moreso than silica. However one key downside is that the mesh, if untreated, is itself conductive, and will cause shorts when in contact with the coil. To overcome this, mesh users will oxidise their wick, commonly using a butane torch to bring it up to a very high temperature. This process is more fiddly than silica, but if built correctly can provide superior results.

    Stainless steel rope
    Stainless steel rope or cable is the same used as that used in balustrades, and is becoming a crowd favourite in genesis-type atomisers. It comes in a wide variety of widths and internal configurations, such as 7x7, 1,19 and 7x19. The first digit indicates how many groups of stainless steel wire there are, while the second digit refers to how many wires in each group. Stainless steel rope has an even better ability to transport juice vertically than mesh. However of its woven design it has an uneven surface, which places limits on the amount of contact the coil has with the juice. To overcome this, oxidised stainless steel mesh is often used as an outer sheath over the rope to provide the even surface for the coil. One thing to note is that due to the sheer mass of metal that is in close proximity to the coil, the whole system has a high level of thermal inertia. This means it takes some time to get up to temperature, and it can retain some serious heat if chaining. This can make it difficult at times to strike the balance of heat and air flow.

    Ceramic wick
    Ceramic wicks are porus materials used again in genesis-type atomisers to draw juice vertically. They are nonconductive, and therefore provide an easier build than the stainless steel mesh. However they are generally not as good a transport medium for juice, and again because of the uneven surface, not always the best for ensuring the coil is in contact with the juice. They are also not flexible, limiting their applications.

    continued below
    Last edited by luntingsir; 11-08-13 at 10:33 PM.
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  7. #27
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    continued from above


    Now, let’s talk about some of the more common configurations.

    Clearomisers
    Clearomisers have a coil built in the centre, with a tank of free-flowing juice around them. The wick used is silica, as it has a good ability to hold juice and prevent an oversupply of juice which could cause leaks down through the air channel. However as it doesn’t have a great transport ability, older style clearos rely on multiple wicks to drag sufficient juice up to the top of the tank where the coil is located. Even then, users often have to tilt the device to charge the wicks nearest the coils when the juice level is low. Recent clearos on the market have located the coil towards the bottom of the tank, using gravity to feed the juice down into the wick. The trade off being an increased chance of leakage.

    Due to the clearo’s realtively small form factor, the size of wick used is often not more than 1mm. While this is sufficient for the wattages the clearo is intended to be used with, it is also precisely why clearos cannot be pushed overly hard, and why it’s suggested to keep them below 8 watts.

    Cartomisers
    Cartomisers are quite a different beast from most other types of configurations. They store a reservoir of juice in a filler-type material, as opposed to a free-flowing tank. The wick itself is made of cotton batting which is in direct contact with the filler material, while the coil is located on the other side. You could almost consider it a reverse wick, in that the wicking material is on the outside the coil, rather than inside as with most other configurations. The filler material and batting in a clearo serves to prevent leaking to some degree, however the trade off is that it is slower to fill and can store less juice in its reservoir. Also, the cotton batting is susceptible to burning if not sufficiently primed.

    Some of these limitations have been addressed by carto tanks. These are tanks that contain free-flowing juice in a tank that surrounds the carto. The juice is wicked from the tank into the filler material by small holes made in the wall of the carto. It’s basically a three stage wick that attempts to store a generous amount of juice in the tank, hold it in the filler material in a managed manner that prevents leaks, while still sufficiently priming the batting that is in contact with the coil.

    In cartos, as the coil is in such close proximity to the juice, meaning it can draw on a ready supply from the reservoir, cartos can be fired at higher wattages than clearos, usually up to 11 watts.

    Genesis-type atomisers
    Genesis atomisers are rebuildable atomisers that draw from a reservoir of juice situated in a tank below the coil. Stainless steel mesh is most commonly used as the wicking material as it has a great ability to draw juice vertically, even though it has less ability to hold juice than silica. However the wicking ability is so great that they can be fired continuously without ever running dry. This, coupled with a larger build platform that can accommodate wicks up to about 3mm, mean that Genesis atomisers, if built well and safely, can be pushed beyond 20 watts.

    Rebuildable Dripping Atomisers
    RDAs do not rely on tanks at all. The only juice present is that contained in the wick itself. So in this case silica is again called back into action for its ability to hold large amounts of juice. The juice vaporised in a RDA often only comes from that stored in the immediate proximity of the coil. Long tails of silica are used to store what can be considered somewhat of a reserve, but drippers will generally have to be manually reprimed after every ten or so hits. Even though this may seem tedious, the attraction of RDAs is that because of the open build platforms they can be built with a wide variety of wick and coil configurations, allowing them to be pushed past 20 watts.


    Additional topics
    Wattage
    Joye eGo and regulated output

    Vaporisation Theory - The Simple View
    Vaporisation Theory - The Complex View: The Coil & Air Flow

    Vaporisation Theory - The Complex View: The Wick
    - you are here now
    Vaporisation Theory - The Complex View: The Juice
    Amperage Theory
    Amperage Theory - Vamo, Smok Zmax v2, SVD, Provari v2 (coming soon)
    Last edited by luntingsir; 22-10-13 at 12:48 PM.
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  8. #28
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    The Complex View

    The Juice

    Heh... well, I don’t quite know as much about juice than I do about the other topics, but I will get down what I know. Hopefully someone who know more than me can pad this section out.

    Juice typically has four main constituents, flavour extracts, propylene glycol and vegetable glycerine and nicotine.

    The flavouring that gives your juice its distinct flavour is the same that is used to flavour foods and sweets. The interesting thing about them however is that while they flavour foods directly, with vaping they are... well, vaporised. This has an interesting effect on how we interpret them. If you’ve ever been unfortunate enough to get some juice in your mouth, you may notice that it doesn’t always taste the same as when you vape it. That’s because when the juice is vaporised it is both heated and vaporised into a gaseous form. The heating process itself can impart a specific flavour by in effect cooking the flavouring. The result of this is that some flavours may have a very different flavour profile depending on how hot or cool you vape it. So it’s always worthwhile playing with your voltages/wattages when testing out new juices. And, of course just like cooking, there is a point at which you simply will burn your juice.

    The fact that juice enters our system in a gaseous form also means that it strays from how it was intended as a food flavouring. You still “taste” your juice, but a lot (if not most) of the flavour you sense is actually from smell, particularly on the exhale.

    An interesting side note is that many vapers find that if they’ve been solely using one juice for a while it will lose its flavour. That’s simply the body acclimatising to the flavour. To overcome this you just need to switch out to a new or unflavoured juice for a while.

    Propylene glycol (PG) is used as one of the two main carriers of flavouring and nicotine. It a fairly commonly used liquid, often found in pharmaceutical products and personal care products, and is considered generally recognised as safe (GRAS) by the United States Food and Drug Administration (FDA). It is a thin liquid, meaning that it has a great ability to transport itself through wicks, however by the same token, it’s also less able to cling to those wicks and more likely to cause flooding. One of the key characteristics of PG is that it has the ability to provide throat hit. That’s the slightly harsh feeling you get when you inhale, and what allows vaping to simulate smoking cigarettes so well. One thing to note however is that some people have a sensitivity to PG, in which case it can sometimes cause a very slight allergic reaction.

    Vegetable glycerin (VG) is similar to PG in that it has similar properties and is GRAS, but it differs in a couple of ways. When VG is vaporised it provides comparatively more vapour. So, if you want to produce bigger clouds, VG is your friend. VG is also sweeter than PG, however the tradeoff is that it can also muffle flavour. VG is thicker than PG, meaning that it doesn’t wick so well, but then again, it increases the ability for wicks to hold more juice.

    You probably would have noticed that most vendors will sell juice that is a mixture of PG and VG, and that’s due to their complementary properties. It is generally indicated by a PG/VG ratio, such as 80/20 or 50/50. It comes down to personal preference when choosing a ratio. It can depend on the equipment you’re using, throat hit preference, vapour generation preference, and potentially PG sensitivity.

    If you’re struggling to work out where to start, try some 50/50 and adjust from there.

    Another interesting side note is that while 100% PG juices are available, 100% VG juices do not really exist (despite some vendors’ claims) as the vast majority of flavour concentrates themselves are generally carried in PG from the factory.

    Nicotine’s an interesting one. Without wanting to stir a huge debate, nicotine is mildly addictive, but not the main cause of addiction to nicotine itself. Research MAOIs if you want to know more. Nevertheless, if you’re coming off cigarettes, your body will crave it. The nicotine in juice will satiate that need, but it is also the main contributor to throat hit. Without it, and you would know this if you’ve ever tried no-nic juice, it’s like inhaling steam. Not terribly satisfying. Nicotine comes mixed in a variety of concentrations, typically from no-nic to 24mg per millilitre.

    On that note, is there a way to equate cigarette puffs to tokes on a vapouriser? Not really. Nicotine breaks down when heated, and cigarettes do it very differently compared to vaporisers. Additionally, the length, duration and frequency of draw is different, even for the same person when they use cigarettes and vaporisers. So as a suggestion to new vapers, most medium to heavy smokers will be best to start at around vaporising 18mg and adjust from there.


    Additional topics
    Wattage
    Joye eGo and regulated output

    Vaporisation Theory - The Simple View

    Vaporisation Theory - The Complex View: The Coil & Air Flow
    Vaporisation Theory - The Complex View: The Wick
    Vaporisation Theory - The Complex View: The Juice
    - you are here now
    Amperage Theory
    Amperage Theory - Vamo, Smok Zmax v2, SVD, Provari v2 (coming soon)
    Last edited by luntingsir; 22-10-13 at 12:48 PM.
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  9. #29
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    Very good and comprehensive writeup luntingsir, the amount of effort you've pit into this is extraordinary, I know where I'll be sending anyone that asks me about vaping.
    luntingsir and Samtron like this.

  10. #30
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    ha, thanks filbert. It started out as a rather innocent wattage chart, but it's taken a life of its own. None of it is absolutely necessary to get someone off the fags, but it's stuff that is handy to know when things are not working out, or you're trying to achieve the ultimate vaping experience.

    On that note, I wonder if a change of title is warranted?
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