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Thread: Problems with harshness

  1. #1
    Rix
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    Problems with harshness

    Hi all, just seeking help for a friend that is having problems with ejuice being too harsh.

    A little background on my friend: he has been vaping for around 4 months. He started on pen style and now uses various rtas and RDAs. He also mixes his own juice.

    He has complained about the harshness of vaping since he went from pen style to sub ohm style. We first thought it might be the Nic level so he downed it to 12mg to no avail. He has since tried 6 and 3 and still the same, I believe. He also changed over to higher vg mixes. He has now tried high ohm and low ohm coils and all the same. He drinks plenty of water but it doesn't help either. He has tried Nic base from: nude, hiliq and freedom

    Here is the message he sent me, posted with permission:

    Alright man, seriously need some help.
    Still getting the harshness from vaping.
    Hydration isn't an issue.
    Have tried multiple flavoring combinations, so it's not from a particular concentrate.
    Have tried 3 different nic's - no change.
    Dripper or tank makes no difference.
    6mg doesn't make much difference down from 12mg (yet with some juices, 12mg is fine).
    Vaping at 0mg is fine.
    Usually build coils around 0.4 ohm at approx 2.8v firing.

    Just built a 1.2ohm coil, and using 3mg juice, and it's better, but still not brilliant.

    Thought it may have to do with steeping, but I've made 12mg shake 'n vape, and been fine.

    Im out of ideas, I really don't want him to go back to smoking.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Last edited by Rix; 02-10-16 at 10:36 PM.

  2. #2
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    First things first. To stay off the smokes.......Does he have the gear and eliquid to roll back to when it was ok. Or at least a point where it was sort of satisfying and bearable.

    At least once he is vaping full time even on old style gear then he has some calm time to work it out.


    Then I would look at the wicking material he is using. Trying out a wetter Vape or even trying MTL (I presume which is what the older pen style gave him)
    Last edited by Crisscross; 02-10-16 at 03:24 PM.
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  3. #3
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    Doggie has a valid point in this thread. It could be the wire he is using for his coils

    (noob) how to pick a juice that is not harsh on the throat
    Fatman likes this.
    Colouring My World with Elegance
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  4. #4
    Rix
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    Thanks Criss cross, I have sent him the link


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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    Trying out a wetter Vape or even trying MTL
    There is an observation that when he increased the coil resistance to 1.3, he felt it was better. My feeling he has been using low ohm coils and running mouth to lung. The low ohm coils are primarily intended for direct lung. Running direct lung increases the airflow over the coils, and has a cooling effect. If running low ohm coils and mouth to lunging,there is a reduced airflow leading to a hotter vape. Just my feeling??

    Somebody will make sense of that!!!
    Because I trust no-one Who tells me FACTS with no proof

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robray View Post
    There is an observation that when he increased the coil resistance to 1.3, he felt it was better. My feeling he has been using low ohm coils and running mouth to lung. The low ohm coils are primarily intended for direct lung. Running direct lung increases the airflow over the coils, and has a cooling effect. If running low ohm coils and mouth to lunging,there is a reduced airflow leading to a hotter vape. Just my feeling??

    Somebody will make sense of that!!!
    I know exactly what you mean. I mentioned a similar thing to someone asking about ceramic coils. They need massive airflow to work efficiently and most MTL techniques don't work properly resulting in slow roast of the eliquid.

    The other thing is if it is the eliquid then maybe a reduction in flavour concentration or even a touch of smooth additive might help.

    Some ideas for a different technique

    The Mouth To Lung Thread.
    Last edited by Crisscross; 02-10-16 at 04:06 PM.
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rix View Post
    ...

    He has complained about the harshness of vaping since he went from pen style to sub ohm style. ...
    Hmmm ... go back to the style of atomiser he was using beforehand?
    Why jump to a sub-ohm setup when he didn't need to?
    Ignore the Super-moderator tag in my profile, I have resigned from that position but admin have not updated my profile as yet

  8. #8
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    Yup...the numbers in the OP suggest 19.6w ...not approaching anything harsh if DL, but MTL slow toot, maybe it could cook the juice

    Even an Endura T18, fixed firing, on plus ohm coils gets pretty warm on a long slow draw...
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  9. #9
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    My first thought was the PG was too high for sub ohm vaping. A lot of the sub ohm guys run 80VG/20PG. This can be harder to wick in an RTA, so a few drops of distilled water can help, or keep the juice in the tank warm.

    12mg/ml nicotine will also be a bit strong for sub ohm. I can nic myself in short order at 12mg/ml since a sub ohm session can use a *lot* of juice. It also gives you a harsher throat hit.

    The next thing I would try would be to turn the power/temperature down a little. New vapers have more trouble detecting when the juice is on the verge of burning because the senses of taste and smell are still recovering but you get to be able to detect this very easily. Takes a few months or even a year+ depending on how long you were smoking. A juice on the verge of burning is way more harsh and it can be different depending on the juice. It's a complex interaction between VG/PG/nic/flavours. You can vary the throat hit and the flavour by varying the power/temperature. Coil design can also affect throat hit. A malfunctioning coil where it's heating unevenly can be hell. I recommend spaced coils for the new DIY coiler, and keep the leg lengths as short as possible.

    Some flavours naturally give a higher throat hit. Menthols, some tobaccos, citrus and others are more throaty. Other flavours like coffee, creams etc have a softer throat hit.

    I find the vape a bit harsh in the morning. I use a softer vape in the morning and progress to my throaty ADV once things have settled down. Other people find it the other way around - a juice with a big throat hit can make them cough at night. I actually experienced this about a week ago, but it's pretty rare for me.

    Lastly, it could be a sensitivity to PG. This can start slowly with some people, and become more harsh and painful as time goes on. The only solution for this is to switch to a max VG or even 100% VG juice. Hopefully this is not the problem however. Most PG-phobes I've spoken to talk about a *painful* sensation rather than a harsh one, though it can be indicative as well.

    There's two main types of "throat hit" and it might be helpful to understand about this. The main one most people understand by this term is a definite dry hit at the back of the throat. This is often associated with nicotine pleasure by smokers, and it what is looked for by new vapers. The style of vaping that promotes this the most is probably mouth to lung vaping where lower airflow hits the back of the throat with the vapour. It's this back of the throat hit that causes the coughing in the evening reported by some people. I didn't even understand that part until GrimmGreen spoke about it in one of his podcasts.

    The second type of throat hit is deeper in the throat, more around the bronchial tubes. Is a softer, thicker sensation that is more associated with direct lung inhales. I direct lung, but during the day like a bit of throat hit as well, so I'm more on the cooler side of DL, with lower velocity airflow.

    See if anything here strikes a chord with your friend. It might be as simple as changing things things around slightly, using a different atomiser, or a different coil and airflow. It can be a mistake to try and run things really hard to maximise vapour: sometimes it's better to slow your roll, back it off a little, and just enjoy the vape. If you've got everything set to maximum, as soon as you suck the air a little slower, it can cause the coil to overheat for example (on a VW mod) - this gives a harsh hit, which make you more vape shy, which means you suck slower, which overheats the coil even more etc.

    One last thing, how is his tongue/tastebuds going? Not being able to taste properly, painful or sore tongue especially while vaping can indicate a case of vapers tongue. The solution is to drink a lot, vape minimally - just a puff when you need it, switch to a unflavoured juice or very light liquids, and time. Normally 24/48 hours will see it right. I find fruit juice and sweet strong cocoa very helpful as well. Causes can be (but not limited to) too much concentrate in the vape - too strong, vaping too much - as happens when testing new flavours, and vaping too much of the same thing all the time.

    ETA: using too much concentrate in a DIY mix is the most common and biggest new mistake. You'll never ruin a juice by using too little concentrate but you certainly can if you use too much. Some of the FA flavours for example can be too much at 1%. The DIY juice golden rule? "Less is more" !
    Last edited by fabricator4; 02-10-16 at 04:31 PM.
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  10. #10
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    Technique is often overlooked in the quest for the perfect Vape. Is there any way you can watch him face to face or via a link and see how he vapes.

    A perfect example.....a friend of mine kept complaining about burning her coils and I could not fathom what was going on. The instant I saw her I realised she was pushing the fire button much to early for the gear she had. It was firing for a full second before she actually got it in her mouth to Vape. The moment she stopped that action and fired once the driptip was in her mouth it was all working as it should.
    Robray, gtadmin, Fatman and 4 others like this.
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